Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sackett. My guest today broke new ground

when she became the boss of the collective body representing Britain's trade unions. Francis O'Grady

was the first woman to be selected as chief advocate for wage-earning workers across the country.

That was back in 2013. She brought to the job a wealth of experience

as a former shop floor worker and long-time union official. Almost a decade on, she's approaching

the end of her tenure at a time of rising pressure on Britain's workers. Inflation is hitting

highs not seen for decades. Wages aren't

keeping pace and living standards are threatened. At the same time, many employers demand workers

who are prepared to work on short-term or freelance contracts. That's the reality of the gig economy.

And then there is changing technology. Artificial intelligence

means more surveillance, more automation, and a dramatic transformation of the workplace and the

role of the worker. In the age of industrialization, trade unions were the vehicle which gave workers

some collective power to defend and expand their

rights. But in this post-industrial age, do trade unions still have a role? Well, Francis O'Grady

joins me now. Welcome to Hard Talk. Thank you. You've had almost a decade at the top of the

Trade Union Congress. For much of that time, you've been seen as somebody who favors collaboration over conflict. But right now, would you say that the trade unions are about to take the gloves off when it comes to relations with employers?

Well, I favour workers getting a fair deal and clearly unions are about

trying to negotiate fair pay, health and safety, decent conditions at work and equality. And many,

many times we get good agreements with employers and that's important. But clearly, if an employer

won't compromise, won't listen,

then it's important that workers have that internationally recognised right to withdraw their labour.

And if that's what it takes, I'm afraid that's what we have to do.

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