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The Ezra Klein Show

Fiona Hill on Whether Ukraine Can Win — and What Happens if Russia Loses

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 8 April 2022

⏱️ 48 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

The Russia-Ukraine war has changed considerably in recent weeks. Vladimir Putin is no longer talking explicitly about regime change in Ukraine. The Russian military has shifted its focus away from taking Kyiv and toward making territorial gains in Ukraine’s east. The prospect of an outright Ukrainian victory is no longer out of the question. And negotiations between the parties over a possible settlement appear to be making some progress. There’s been a darker turn as well: Over the weekend, images surfaced of atrocities committed by the Russian military against Ukrainian civilians. And Western leaders are considering expanding military aid to Ukraine, initiating war crimes investigations and placing harsher sanctions on Russia in response. Fiona Hill served as deputy assistant to the president and senior director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council under Donald Trump and as a national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasia under Barack Obama and George W. Bush. I had her on the show a few weeks ago to help me make sense of the Russia-Ukraine conflict as it was developing at the time, and it was one of the most illuminating perspectives I’d heard on the topic. So I invited her back to discuss how the situation has changed, where we are now and what the conflict could look like. We discuss why Hill has become pessimistic about the possibility of a peace deal, how the carnage in Bucha could alter the course of the conflict, why Russia has been so much weaker on the battlefield than expected, whether Ukraine can achieve an outright victory, why this war is making Putin more popular in Russia (not less), what else the West could be doing to support Ukraine, why Hill thinks we’re entering a “much darker” phase of the conflict, what role China could play in bringing about a negotiated settlement, what a renewed framework for European security could look like and more. Book Recommendations: The Art of War by Sun Tzu Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Mr. Climb.

0:06.9

This is the Ezra Khan Show.

0:24.1

About a month ago, I had Fiona Hill on the show.

0:26.8

And I had Fiona Hill on the show because Russia had invaded Ukraine.

0:31.2

And no one in the West understands Russia's strategic thinking, Vladimir Putin's strategic

0:37.2

ambitions as well as Hill.

0:40.3

She served as National Intelligence Officer for Russia and Eurasia under President George

0:44.6

W. Bush and Barack Obama.

0:46.3

She served as Senior Director for European and Russian Affairs at the National Security

0:49.5

Council under President Trump.

0:51.0

She's co-author of the book, Mr. Putin, Operative in the Kremlin, an author of, there is nothing

0:56.4

for you here.

0:57.4

And in that conversation, she gave an incredibly clear description of what it was Putin was trying

1:02.3

to achieve then, what it was he thought he knew, what it was he thought he could get

1:07.4

away with.

1:09.1

But a lot has changed in a month of war.

1:12.4

Ukraine successfully repelled Russia from Kiev, at least for now.

1:16.0

Putin has seen that this is not a country.

1:18.8

He can quickly overwhelm, decapitate its leadership and subjugate its population.

1:24.8

He and the world have seen that Ukrainians are not Russians and don't want to be.

1:28.7

The Russian troops are not being greeted to say the least with chocolates and flowers.

1:33.5

But that is not to say the war is over by any means.

...

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