This is Paul Adamson and I'm in conversation with Sir Craig Oliver.

Craig Oliver was the head of communications for David Cameron from 2011 until the summer of last year.

Before that he had a distinguished career, editing the BBC's News at 6 and News at 10, control of the BBC World Service, an executive editor of ITV's flagship news programs.

You recently published an account of your time as David Cameron's editor of Communications Craig called Unleashing Demons, the inside story of Brexit.

And I'd like to start actually with a quote from the book where you're quoting Mr.

Cameron himself, who was reflecting on a discussion taking place between cabinet colleagues,

those four and those against, as it were.

And he says the following, you quote him as saying the following, quote,

it's interesting.

It boils down to a debate about sovereignty versus influence.

Do we have more genuine control over things that matter

through greater sovereignty at home,

or through having influence over an organization

that will continue to exist and affect us even if we leave?

End of quote.

That strikes me as a very interesting quote,

because many people said one of the major flaws of the campaign,

why I'm not necessarily doomed to failure,

was that David Cameron had been saying for quite a while

before the renegotiation, negative things about the EU,

like many prime ministers around Europe. Even general negotiation, he was saying

that I leave, I exclude, I rule nothing out, so that the threat may be walking away, or at least

...