Hello and welcome to today's independent travel podcast and I'm delighted to welcome back Paul Goldstein.

You might recall we talked about photography.

Well, Paul's other love is running a safari camp in Africa.

Paul, tell us about safaris.

People who've never been on them, you basically

check in somewhere probably a little too expensive. You get up early, you sit in a land rover,

you go and take some pictures of some animals, and then you come back and have quite a nice

breakfast, is that here? What an absolute fellow, Stein, you are. Firstly, camps. Yeah, I started

with five staff in 2000 and a very small camp.

We've got about 200 staff now. We're still fiercely independent. And our camps are in conservances.

That means over a third of what you pay, just on the edge of the Massamara and in Lyquipia, in the north of Kenya.

Over a third of what you pay goes into the local community.

So this isn't greenwash and we actually care.

Your conservancy fees are audited twice a year.

So the Conservancy's work.

All stakeholders benefit.

So ethically, it sits kindly.

And what's different between a national park run by the state and a conservancy?

You want to have a wild guess?

Where do you think the money goes for the first one?

Exactly.

50 million.

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