The recent 'Beagle Gate' story of NIH torturing beagles has hit a lot of people hard, on all sides of the political spectrum. Savage has long been a defender of animal rights and wildlife protection, and shares his story of giving up a lucrative fellowship because he couldn't bring himself to murder lab animals. He talks with a fabulous guest, Justin Goodman of the White Coat Waste project (https://www.whitecoatwaste.org) who uncovered the NIH "sand fly" studies using strapped down beagles as food for hungry sand flies. Goodman shares a lot of important info: e.g., NIH devotes about $20 Billion per year on animal research, much of it for testing drugs that the FDA doesn't even require animal testing for approval. They also conduct ghoulish experiments creating psychological stress in primates. They justify their work as being "applicable to humans" while at the same time saying "animals don't feel what we feel". Savage says Darwin proved they DO feel as we do, in his work ‘The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals.’ Don't be fooled. Anything to support big pharma, that's Fauci's guiding principle all the way back to the AIDS epidemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices