This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

For years now, New York Times columnist and podcaster Ezra Klein has been at the center of debates over the future of the Democratic Party

and what liberalism's political priorities ought to be.

Klein's perspective is getting even more scrutiny these days

as we're in the midst of a volatile national debate over free speech

and the very stability of our democracy.

As we speak, President Trump is demanding prosecutions of his political enemies. He's claimed that it's illegal for the press

to be critical of him, and he's routinely used threatening and dehumanizing language to

discredit his opponents, whom he admits he hates.

He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie.

I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry.

So how should Trump's critics and opponents handle this onslaught?

What can they do to win back the voters that deserted them in last year's presidential election?

I spoke to Ezra Klein about his perspective on the perilous moment that we find ourselves in today.

Let's start with what happened when Charlie Kirk was killed. You pretty immediately published

an essay in the Times that, of course, condemn political violence, comparing it to a contagion

or the danger of a contagion. And you praised Charlie Kirk's willingness to debate.

You called it, quote, practicing politics the right way.

That was the phrase that resonated everywhere.

And since that terrible event, the assassination of Charlie Kirk in Utah,

we've seen how Trump and the MAGA movement at times has planned to use his death in a

...