Hey there it's Stephen Dubner. We just started publishing a series called

The True Story of America's Supremely messed up immigration system.

As we were working on the series, we came across an interview we did back in 2015 for an episode

called Is Migration a Basic Human Right? We interviewed a variety of people for that

episode, economists, political scientists, refugees from Egypt and Syria, and

they all had very different perspectives on immigration.

But there was one interview that really stayed with me.

Well, I think it is a human right, but I do think that there is a sense where somebody's taking my bread, so why don't they live in their own country?

That is the voice of Madeline Albright. She was born in Prague in

1937 and was a refugee in her youth twice. As you may know, Albright would go on to

serve as U.S. Secretary of State under President Bill

Clinton.

She was also a U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.

Albright died in 2022 at age 84. Today I wanted to share this conversation with you as a bonus

episode in our immigration series. There has been a lot of change in the world

since 2015 when we spoke but I think you will find

that Albright's worldview is almost strangely appropriate for the present moment.

One thing worth mentioning since we talk a bit about the European Union near the beginning of the

episode, this conversation took place before the 2016 Brexit referendum when the UK voted

to leave the EU.

As always, thanks for listening.

Hello, Madam Secretary.

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