Going back to your point about Israel becoming a pariah state, do you think we're at a point of no return for liberal Zionism and that support for Israel will become almost entirely a position confined to the right of the political spectrum internationally, with only partial exceptions such as Germany, which is something of a special case and the United States, in the latter case,

pro-Israel opinion is still relatively robust, at least according to the latest polling.

Yeah, look, I think it is the point of no return.

I think Jonathan Glaze's Oscar acceptance speech, which clearly repudiates the unconditional claim of Zionisman Jewish identity, while also drawing a connection between the Holocaust

and contemporary atrocities, it's an interesting threshold in this regard, because it's not just

that it challenges Zionism's claim on Jewish identity, it also challenges its essential claim

to Holocaust memory. Now, this has aroused a lot of panic among Israel's hardcore defenders,

and I know you all have seen that CNN went so far

as to commission a hatchet job review by apparently a middle-aged toddler months after

it was released just to punish Glazer for his transgression.

But you will have noticed that the statement issued by hundreds of Hollywood executives and celebrities and so on,

telling him to shut up, was signed by very few actual names, you know, very few notable

Jewish celebrities.

It was also, I mean, the statement struck me as being, you know, it had the sort of

hysterical tone, which is perhaps more characteristic of what we see from

Israeli politicians and Israeli media figures rather than liberal American Zionists. I mean,

that was something that I was struck by. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and that's the problem.

I mean, Israel has gone so far, diverged so far from the pattern of mainstream Jewish-American thinking.

Tony Kushner, who, to be fair, has always been somewhat on the left, rather than just a

liberal, although he's also always been in kind of a two-stater about Israel-Palestine.

But he's somewhat on the left, and he wrote the Spielberg film about Mossad

assassins that made Israel very angry because it basically portrayed Mossad assassins as terrorists.

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