My guest is Pascal Ami.

Pascal Ami.

Pascal Ami served two consecutive terms as Director General of the World Trade Organization,

the WTO from 2005 to 2013.

Before that, he was a European Commissioner for Trade and the European Commission in Brussels.

And from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, he was the chef de Cavanee of Jacques de Lois when Jacques De Laudeau was

president of the European Commission. Now he's the vice president of the Paris Peace Forum and he

coordinates the Jacques de Loors institutes in Paris, Berlin and Brussels. Welcome to the podcast, Pascal.

Glad to be with you. Right, we're going to jump right in, okay? Tariffs, the impact of Trump administration on the new world trade order. A lot of, as you know, comment and analysis of the tensions, but certainly the media has been on tariffs themselves. The level of tariffs, the timing of tariffs, the sector's affected, the country is affected, and maybe not enough analysis is spent

on the broader implications of that.

So that's why I was very keen to talk to you now, Pascal, beyond the details of the nitty

gritty of whatever tariff Mr. Trump in the White House chooses to announce and then change

his mind maybe the next day.

In your judgment, the impact of the new White House administration on the World Trade Order.

Well, I think you're right to consider that Trump tariffs are only one part of this evolving world trade landscape.

The backstage discussion is about globalization.

Whether or not we've reached a stage of globalization,

which is plateauing or regressing or which will keep moving forward.

And I think this is the big question,

and there are various views.

My own view for what is worth

is that given the shaping factors

...