We were outsiders, but as history teaches us, the gods have their own plans.

I'm Jonathan Wilson and with Rob Draper, and that was Otto Rehagel, reflecting on how Greece won the year 2004.

So this is the second part of our two-part series on year 2004, looking at the tournament

that mainly believing that should have won and looking at Greece, probably the biggest

shock winners in international tournament history.

So Rob, why don't he tell us, we've done the group stage in part one, we're going to move

into the knockout stages, but before we get to that, why do you tell us a bit about Otto Rehael, about where

he's come from, and also about Greek football and where it's coming from at this stage, and

why it's seen as such a shock that Greece can go on to win the Euros? Yeah, I think Otto Rehaal

I think I under appreciated him at the time.

I think he's a legendary coach.

I'd put him up there, Brian Clough, I think, in terms of what he manages to achieve in German football.

And I don't think I properly appreciated that in 2004, and probably not until researching this podcast.

Born in 1938 in the Ruhr region of Germany,

that's industrial region where all the steelworks and mines are.

That's significant, the date and where he's born.

Well, he's born in Essen, which is, do you know where Essen's the Twin Town of?

Is it a Twin Town of Sunderland?

It is, yeah.

I thought, I thought Shaoqa, I thought Galzengishin was, but no. No, Gazikov is twin town in New Castle. But that's the kind of a barrier it is. The rower is, yeah, as you say, mining steelworks. So again, that link with Clough, the idea of coming from a mining steel manufacturing background, that's exactly what he's coming out of. And I think a lot of the values of those kind of industrial areas are the values of some

mid-20th century, mid-late 20th century European football. Yeah, he's from a mining family. His dad's a

miner. And therefore, you can't avoid the comparisons with so Matt Busby, Jockstein,

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