Erik Verlinde: Gravity Is Not Fundamental, It Is Entropic

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 16 February 2026

⏱️ 115 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

What if gravity is just entropy in disguise? Professor Erik Verlinde joins me to argue that gravity isn't a fundamental force—it's thermodynamic, emerging from quantum information the way gas pressure emerges from molecules bouncing around. We explore why spacetime may be stitched together by entanglement, and how dark energy and dark matter both pop out automatically without extra particles or parameters. Verlinde explains why the cosmological constant problem is a red herring, and why there may be no final theory of physics. When asked where the universe comes from, his answer is one word: chaos. SUPPORT: - Support me on Substack: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe - Support me on Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9 - Support me on PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 JOIN MY SUBSTACK (Personal Writings): https://curtjaimungal.substack.com LISTEN ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e TIMESTAMPS: - 00:00:00 - Thermodynamic Gravity and Information - 00:06:35 - Beyond Effective Field Theory - 00:13:08 - Turtles All The Way Down - 00:25:41 - Entropy as a Force - 00:36:31 - Entanglement and Spatial Connectivity - 00:47:31 - Deriving Inertia and F=ma - 00:56:41 - De Sitter Space Challenges - 01:02:01 - Dark Matter and Milgram - 01:11:51 - The Emergence of Time - 01:21:01 - Statistical Gravity Fluctuations - 01:27:01 - Quantum Computational Complexity - 01:36:01 - Physics Intuition and Mentorship - 01:47:31 - Beauty, Garbage, and Chaos LINKS MENTIONED: Papers, books, websites: - https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Tm64-J0AAAAJ - https://journals.aps.org/prb/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevB.4.3174 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02269 - https://journals.aps.org/pr/pdf/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777 - https://amazon.com/dp/0486600688?tag=toe08-20 - https://www.nature.com/articles/248030a0 - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:The_Field_Equations_of_Gravitation - https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9504004 - https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0603001 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1005.3035 - https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0106112 - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3203 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.02087 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.08255 - https://www.ias.edu/sns/events/iaspctspgi-workshop-quantum-aspects-black-holes-and-spacetime - https://amazon.com/dp/0262533413?tag=toe08-20 Videos: - https://youtu.be/HIoviZe14pY - https://youtu.be/X4PdPnQuwjY - https://youtu.be/xZnafO__IZ0 - https://youtu.be/gEK4-XtMwro - https://youtu.be/-BsHh3_vCMQ - https://youtu.be/3mhctWlXyV8 - https://youtu.be/bprxrGaf0Os - https://youtu.be/zNZCa1pVE20 - https://youtu.be/ZUp9x44N3uE - https://youtu.be/2p_Hlm6aCok - https://youtu.be/kUHOoMX4Bqw - https://youtu.be/_yebLXsIdwo - https://youtu.be/Ve_Mpd6dGv8 - https://youtu.be/0YRlQQw0d-4 - https://youtu.be/Bnh-UNrxYZg - https://youtu.be/hF4SAketEHY - https://youtu.be/Iya6tYN37ow - https://youtu.be/0_Px5gbs9i0 - https://youtu.be/gsSJPLX-BTA - https://youtu.be/73IdQGgfxas - https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. SPONSOR: I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	The Premier League is exciting.
0:04.0	It's exhilarating.
0:08.0	And sometimes it's...
0:11.0	So when you need something to help you ride the highest and loads of all that action,
0:17.0	grab a Coke to keep you in the game.
0:20.0	Time to refresh. Time for a Coke. Coca-Cola,
0:25.0	official partner of the Premier League. I feel that we are on the verge of making a totally new theory
0:35.1	of the gravitational force and of space time.
0:37.7	I think that things like inflation or even Big Bang is only approximation of what really happens.
0:43.4	Just the idea that we can find the final loss, I think is newbrids.
0:47.0	If you ask me, where does the world come from?
0:49.7	Probably my answer would be quantum chaos.
0:52.1	I feel there's some big thing to be done.
0:56.1	Renowned professor Eric Verlinde, a legend in quantum gravity, thinks gravity is thermodynamic.
1:02.8	Specifically, the thermodynamics of quantum information doing something, the way gas pressure is another way of
1:09.4	saying molecules are doing something.
1:11.9	Now, what that something is and how gravity could possibly look like this is the topic of today's
1:17.4	podcast. And what's fascinating is that if you follow his results, you get two seemingly
1:22.8	unrelated puzzles being solved, popping out automatically, the origin of dark energy and the origin of
1:30.2	dark matter. No dark matter particles, no extra parameters. I think that the particle dark matter
1:36.9	community is not always playing this game, honestly. This is all because in 2010, a landmark paper
1:44.1	by Verlinde derived the gravitational
	...

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