.

Welcome to Citizen.

We have a very special guest today, author of When Race Trump's Mirits, How the Pursuit

of Equity Threatens Lives, Heather McDonald.

How are you doing?

I'm great.

Thanks for having me on, Dan.

Yes, ma'am, anytime.

So this has been kind of a weird period in human history.

It has been the case for most of it that just through an necessity that a mere atocracy

exists because we've just been trying to stay alive, right?

Now that we've gotten a little bit more comfortable, it seems like some of these weird

ideas about how life should be fair have become people's guidestone, which is interesting

to me, because it's never really been that way before.

And you've done quite a bit of work in this area.

Can you tell me a little bit about your personal background and how you got into this kind

of research?

Well, first of all, I would just say that if life should be fair, we should have a meritocracy.

We should have people rewarded based on their actual accomplishments, not on the trivialities

of race or sex.

I'd never regarded as fair when I am given some opportunity, whether it's to peer on

a panel or write something or be on a show, because I'm female, which I know happens

...