Hello everybody, you are listening to the Antigram Journey with Suzanne Stibiel.

A review we received on iTunes is that I jump in and nobody knows who is talking.

So, I'm going to fix that moving forward.

My name is Joel and I work for a life in the Trinity Ministry doing all sorts of things

and stuff, including helping put this podcast together.

Today's episode is part two of Suzanne's conversation with Antigram 4 and someone who I think is just a complete genius, Ryan McLaren.

A reminder that this conversation was recorded at the Lumiere Bookstore in Jackson, Mississippi, which is one of Suzanne's absolute favorite bookstores in the world.

If you're in the Jackson area, definitely swing by and check it out.

If you like the sound of a live podcast and you want to be a part of it, please join us on Friday, October 18th and Dallas.

Suzanne and a panel of guests will be talking all things Antigram, especially our repressed and dominant centers.

And if you want to make a weekend of it, the very next day on the 19th is the Formantras, Relationships, and Antigram event with Suzanne.

All ticket proceeds from the live podcast are going to support the Austin Street Center here in Dallas.

You can learn more about the incredible work that they do at AustinStreet.org.

I hope you enjoy the rest of Suzanne and Brian's conversation and I hope we see you at an upcoming event and good luck on the journey.

I think that we can't stand to be on the threshold. We just can't stand it.

And I think people who are kind of fearful by nature or anxious, run back to how we used to do it.

And I think people who are a little more of the type who like to explore and imagine, then they run forward to create something new.

But the problem is that neither one works because running forward, that group of people create something quickly that isn't tethered to what we're building on.

It's just a new thing. And that in work.

And going back never works and certainly isn't going to work for the church.

So then the question is how do we help people stay in liminal space?

And Richard Rohr said at one time that he thinks liminality or liminal space is the most teachable space.

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