Episode 472: The “Sin of Empathy” & Spotting Toxic Leaders with Jamin Goggin & Kyle Strobel

The Holy Post

Phil Vischer

Skyejethani, Society & Culture, Philvischer, Religion & Spirituality, Christianity, 226012, Christiantaylor, Atheism, Veggietales

4.6 • 4.1K Ratings

🗓️ 1 September 2021

⏱️ 97 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Former megachurch pastor, evangelical wunderkind, and author of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye,” Josh Harris, has since left his wife and renounced his faith. He’s now pitching himself as an expert guide for other ex-vangelicals. What does his story tell us about the evangelical subculture? Then, strange things are happening at John Piper’s church in Minneapolis where leaders are clashing over issues of race and abuse. And some pastors are resigning after being accused of “the sin of empathy.” Then, Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel return to discuss revisions to their 2017 book “The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb.” They stopped selling the book and revised it because one of the Christian leaders they celebrated as a “lamb” turned out to be a “dragon.” They’re now asking, why do we so often fail to spot toxic church leaders? Plus, scientists are making mini-brains from stem cells. But to their surprise, the brains have grown eyes. Leading Phil to ask, What could possibly go wrong?

News Segment

Updates from the crew (Jason’s cinnamon rolls and Christian’s film) [1:49]

Stem cell mini-brains with eyes [7:45]

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-used-stem-cells-to-make-mini-brains-they-grew-rudimentary-eyes

Josh Harris [16:21]
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/joshua-harris-mars-hill-podcast-kissed-christianity-goodbye.html

“Bethlehem Baptist Leaders clash over ‘coddling’ and ‘cancel culture’” [33:20]
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/august-web-only/bethlehem-bcs-minneapolis-resign-meyer-empathy-rigney.html

Interview with Jamin Goggin & Kyle Strobel
The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb (Revised and updated edition): https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/way-of-the-dragon/

Episode 238 (Prior conversation with Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel):
https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/1eea0773/episode-238-power-and-the-church-withjamin-goggin-and-kyle-strobel

BONUS Patreon question: What do we do with the content and impact from toxic leaders?
https://www.patreon.com/posts/55594990

Interview Start [1:00:39]

Why is there a new edition? [1:02:37]

Original story and role of book [1:06:35]

How they processed the news of Jean Vanier’s abusive behavior [1:10:43]

Discerning wolves from lambs - is there hope for progress? [1:16:17]

Ministering to people who have been deceived and hurt [1:24:04]

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	Welcome to episode 472. Today, we talk about Mike Cosper's recent interview with Joshua Harris,
0:07.2	the former Megaturch pastor and Evangelical Wonderkind, who became the poster child for the purity
0:12.5	movement back in the 1990s with his book I Kissed, Dating Goodbye. Harris has since left his wife
0:18.5	and renounced his faith. What does his story tell us about the Evangelical subculture?
0:23.9	Then, strange things are happening at John Piper's church in Minneapolis, where leaders are
0:28.8	clashing over issues of race and abuse, and some pastors are resigning after being accused of,
0:34.3	quote, the sin of empathy. End quote. Then I talk with my friends, Jamin Goggan and Kyle Strollble,
0:40.9	about revisions to their 2017 book, The Way of the Dragon or The Way of the Lamb. They decided to
0:46.7	pull the book from publication and rewrite it because it turns out one of the Christian leaders they
0:51.6	had celebrated as a Lamb turned out to be a dragon, and they have wisdom to share about that experience.
0:58.4	All of that, plus scientists are making many brains from stem cells, but to their surprise,
1:03.6	the brains have grown their own eyes, leading Phil to ask, what could possibly go wrong?
1:09.3	Before we jump into the episode, a brief scheduling update. The next Holy Post to livestream with
1:14.8	me, Phil and Christian, is all set for September 28th at 8 p.m. Central time. It's an opportunity to
1:21.4	hang out with us live via YouTube and ask questions, and if you're lucky, Phil might just bring his
1:27.0	ukulele. Access to these livestream events are exclusively for Holy Post Patreon supporters,
1:32.9	so if you've not yet signed up, head over to HolyPost.com and click the support us button.
1:38.7	That way you'll get access to all the bonus interviews, merchandise, and you'll be able to join us
1:43.2	at 8 p.m. on September 28th for the next livestream event. Okay, here's today's show.
1:48.7	Hey there, welcome back to the show. This is Phil Vichio. This is the Holy Post podcast. I am here
1:52.6	with Skyjitani. Hi Phil. Hi Sky, you're still wearing the same hat. I am wearing the same.
1:58.1	Miami of Ohio. Yeah. Go, what's the fight song? Go, what are they, the Eagles? No, Red Hawks.
	...

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