You are listening to the Katie Herzog experience. I'm Katie Herzog, the only host of this podcast,

and today we have a very special guest host sitting in with me,

Andy Mills.

Now, even if you don't know the name, Andy Mills,

you probably know his work.

He was a longtime producer on the public radio show Radio Lab and he co-created the New York Times

podcast The Daily, Caliphate and Rabbit Hole. More recently, he created and produced the witch trials of JK Rolling.

And Andy is an audio genius.

He is really considered one of the best radio producers in the country,

and he has the awards and accolades to prove it, including multiple

Pulitzer nominations. But he also took a very public fall from Grace in 2020, and for the first time

ever, Andy is going to speak publicly about what actually

happened behind the scenes at the New York Times and elsewhere during that summer.

Now I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased here. Andy's my friend. He slept on my couch. We've eaten meals together. And he's also someone

who, as you will hear, takes responsibility for his fuckups and who survived a pretty brutal

cancellation campaign and somehow came out of it okay.

And I'm really glad to have him sitting in today for that other guy whose name we shall not mention.

Andy, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Katie. And yes, it's true. I have enjoyed the hospitality of you and your wife and her fantastic cooking

And I regularly enjoy the splendor of your friendship and I appreciate you having me on today. I mean, I think what I would love to do with you in our time here today is kind of two things. One of them is speak as a reporter who was inside of two very important and very

influential media institutions during these years of a really profound and interesting shift that's

underway in journalism right now.

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