I am Jonathan Lehman.

I know you think it's unlikely, but he really is.

I'm sitting here, and it is, in fact, Jonathan, David Lehman.

And with me is Mark Devere.

For real.

For reals.

And welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exist to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for

building healthy churches. Learn more at nine marks.org. Mark, I want to talk about a pastor's

concern for his own reputation. Okay. On the one hand, you have Paul.

He must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into

the snare of the devil.

Well, does that mean Jesus couldn't be an elder?

Well, I was about to quote Jesus, who said, blessed are you and others revile you and

persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

What do you think? Who do we listen to, Jesus or Paul? Yeah. I think both. I think that's, I assume you as a pastor

have had conversations like that. I certainly have. I think what Jesus is talking about is the

basic antipathy there is from the world to us as followers of Christ. And it's true. You and I both know that in our own struggle to repent,

how we have to go against our own flesh,

certainly when we were initially converted,

but then in a continuing sense and following the Lord.

So there's a worldliness that, you know,

...