Episode 147, 'Creator or Cosmos' with Tim Mawson and Asha Lancaster-Thomas (Part II - Further Analysis and Discussion)
The Panpsycast Philosophy Podcast
Jack Symes | Andrew Horton, Oliver Marley, and Rose de Castellane
4.8 • 612 Ratings
🗓️ 5 October 2025
⏱️ 39 minutes
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Summary
Across the world, belief in God continues to be widespread and, among philosophers, has long been considered one solution to the problems of the world's origin, fine-tuned nature, and purpose. However, in the West, very few people have considered alternative concepts of God credible. That, though, may be beginning to change. One such alternative – pantheism – tells us that the universe and God are one and the same thing. It challenges conventional ideas about divine agency and the coherence of traditional theism, and invites us to reconsider what we mean when we speak of 'God'.
To explore God's nature, in this special episode, I'll be joined by two guests: Tim Mawson and Asha Lancaster-Thomas. Dr Mawson is Edgar Jones Fellow and Tutor in Philosophy at St Peter's College, University of Oxford. He has published five books and over fifty papers in the philosophy of religion. Dr Lancaster-Thomas is Teacher of Philosophy at Atlanta Classical Academy, USA, and has published widely on the philosophy of religion – most recently exploring alternative concepts of God, including the one we'll be debating today.
Tim Mawson will be arguing in favour of traditional theism – the view that God and the world are not identical. Asha Lancaster-Thomas will be defending pantheism – the view that they are. What are the implications of identifying God with the universe? Can such a view still provide the kind of moral and metaphysical grounding traditionally associated with belief in a transcendent creator? Or – by dragging God down from the heaven's – do we diminish the divine and its explanatory power?
This episode is generously supported by The John Templeton Foundation, through The Panpsychism and Pan(en)theism Project (62683).
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan Pan |
| 0:07.0 | Scicast |
| 0:08.0 | Part 2, further analysis and discussion. |
| 0:26.0 | Welcome back to a debate with Tim Mawson and Asher Lancash Thomas, |
| 0:30.2 | where we're looking at traditional theism and pantheism. |
| 0:34.6 | There are absolutely loads of arguments on the table, |
| 0:37.3 | which we were discussing last time around. |
| 0:38.7 | Go back and listen to that if you haven't done so already. |
| 0:42.0 | Where we ended last time was in a really unusual and weird place where I didn't expect us to go, |
| 0:47.8 | which was essentially Tim saying, we were here first, we set up the goals. |
| 0:51.9 | So you're not allowed to move the goalposts and redefine God |
| 0:55.5 | in this radical way and completely changed the definition, as it were. Asha, what were your |
| 1:00.9 | thoughts off the back of Tim's ending monologue last time around? I can see why Tim thinks that, |
| 1:05.7 | especially as a classical theist, as a non-classical theist, I would have to say the following. First of all, |
| 1:13.6 | if we're really looking at original goalposts, then we need to go back before religions like |
| 1:19.4 | Christianity and Islam, we need to go back to maybe Hinduism and say, right, the Hindus get |
| 1:24.4 | to set the goalposts or the pagans get to set the goalposts or the indigenous religions get to set the goalposts because they were there first. |
| 1:31.8 | And then, well, I just don't think the classical theorists would want to do that. |
| 1:36.5 | And secondly, I would say that the goalpost idea is just not something I agree with. |
| 1:42.7 | I think that tradition has its place and I think that |
| 1:45.3 | well-established religions, that could possibly be a benefit that so many people have believed them |
| 1:49.7 | for so long. There's scripture, there's history that supports it. But at the same time, |
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