This is trend following radio where great thinking comes alive.

Nobel Prize winners, legendary traders, bestselling authors, and the pros that know what drive us irrational human beings.

I am your host, Michael Covel, not filtered, raw, honest.

That's my passion.

My guest today has been called by the Wall Street Journal,

one of the world's most influential business thinkers. Forbes has called him the world's leading expert on business strategy.

And I got to tell you, for his newest book, every major player that any author would ever want to say nice words about a book, they say it about

my guest today about his newest book. My guest today is Gary Hamill. He is a management consultant,

American management consultant. And he is very well known for his longstanding teaching relationship with the London

Business School. Today we dive into a word, one that is, I don't want to say near and dear to me,

but one that I really despise, the word bureaucracy. How much economic activity is lost because of bureaucracy?

And Gary and his newest work, his newest book, goes right at this word bureaucracy.

His answer, humanocracy.

He flips the whole thing on its head. Now, I'm sure there'll be some

people that will say, oh, that's awesome. And some people will say, no way. I want to be open-minded.

I want to look for these new ways, the new thinking. Because just the standard issue, bureaucracy, whether we see it in a company or government,

every time we experience it, we all just pull our hair out, what hair we have left.

Without any further delay, let's jump right into my conversation with Gary Hamill.

Gary, before we jump into your world today, I want to take you back in time because, I mean, I've got these papers in front of me and there are so many names that are giving you praise.

Now, look, I've written some books and I know how getting names to talk about stuff, but this isn't just the regular

group of names. So you've really had an interesting career, clearly, but I want you to take me back

in time to a young Gary. I want to know what the start is. I mean, we could all look in right now,

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