It's a constant puzzle and that to me it excites me. It's not how fast I can go. It's can I solve this puzzle of time? Welcome to the trailhead of Trail Runner Nation. It's another week. It's another fun discussion. We're going to have that are going to help us be better runners healthier human beings and maybe just better people. When you're out there on the course, you're always racing something. You're racing the competitor, the clock, the distance, but today we're going to talk about running 4.17 miles over and over and over again. It's called Bigs Backyard. Real tips from Real Runners. This is Clarity on the Trail presented by Tufosi Optics. We're helping you see the path ahead, more clearly with listener-submitted gold and Tufosi's world-class lens technology. Today's to focey clarity on the trail recovery tip came from our text line at 916-235-3928 from Jared. He says, recovery is part of the training, not a reward after it. After a hard run, I focus on the basics. I hydrate, refuel, move a little, and let the body rest. Respecting recovery is what keeps me showing up for the next starting line. He says, train hard, recover harder, and stay ready. We'll be sending Jared a pair of Tophosi Optics News Sanctum SL sunglasses for sharing his knowledge with the tribe. You two can win a pair of news sanctum SL glasses by sharing your tip. What geared you refuse to start a run unless you have it? And you can use our text line in if you're in the US 916-235-3928. Or post it on Instagram, tag at tofosioptics, at trailrunnernation, and use the hashtag ClarityOnTheTrail.

Each week, we're gonna choose one submission and read it right here on the podcast. If you don't wanna take a chance to win a pair, just go to our deals page at trailrunnerNation.com and get 20% off their entire store. Welcome to another edition of TrailRunnerNation. My name is Don Freeman, and I'm Scott War. Today Megan Eckhart joins us again,

and she's never claimed to be the fastest runner in the field yet in the last two years she's quietly become one of the toughest endurance athletes on the planet. Since we last talked with Megan about backyard ultras she's gone on to set a woman's world record of Bigs backyard ultra and then become the first woman ever to run more than 600 miles in six days. Today, she's joining us. We want to learn and explore what happens to the body and mind after days without sleep. Why women are thriving in the longest races, and what every runner can learn from Megan's

masterclass in patience, pacing, and persistence. Thanks for joining us again, Megan. Thanks for having me on here. Meg, I've got a question for you. I just want to know how big is that silver buckle when you run 600 miles over six days? You know the crazy part is there is no buckle. Oh, you don't do it for the buckle. There is in this case I was female overall. So it was a good two two and a half foot trophy that I had to figure out how to get in my suitcase to take back which was complicated in itself. But no, no buckle at these. Let me tell you, I would have no trouble getting out through TSA with my trophy. I would hold it up. I would pass it through. I would make obscene scenes so people could see me with that trophy. That's what I would have done. Everybody, look at what I have. Let me tell you, of course, you're probably in a wheelchair at this point for I run in 600 miles. I certainly would be. My feet were pretty swollen after all of those miles. What did you experience after 600 miles that you hadn't experienced any other time with any other long run? What manifest after a mile 600? I usually like most of us, right? I get inflammation afterwards. You swell. There's a recovery period. Oddly, in the sixth day, when I got to the later part of the sixth day and the final maybe 12 hours, I started getting a lot of swelling during the race. So my face swelled, my feet started to swell, calves, quads, everything just kind of just felt like a bubble. I'm just curious. How do you recover? What does your recovery look like post-race? Are you running the next week? Are you just trying to deal with swelling and inflammation? What does recovery look like for you, Meg? So recovery is very individual based on the race. It's based on the race. It's based on how I felt during the race. It's based on how I'm feeling the days after. It's not a cookie cutter, one fits all sort of thing. First six day in particular, it was very much of a walking for seven days and then trying to do three miles. Seeing what the heart rate felt like, seeing what the feet felt like, the legs felt like taking all that feedback and saying, okay, well, I might need another day here of rest or I might need some active recovery instead of trying to run. So it was a lot of like testing the waters and then backing off, testing the waters and then backing off, which is what I do in every race, but some races I'm able to bounce back a lot quicker the day after or two days after, and other races it'll take days. So for some of the listeners out there that may not know what Big Backyard Racing is all about, why don't you give us an overview so we can get everybody on the same page here, right? Yeah, so Big Backyard races have actually exploded. They've taken off across the world. They are timed events in a sense. You start at the top of every hour, you line up in a corral with a bunch of other runners. And so your first ones, you are one. That's your first loop. You have 60 minutes to go out and run 4.17 miles either on a dirt track or a paved track or a road. You have to make it back to that seam spot that you started in that 60 minutes. Then you get back in the corral and you do it all again. And you keep going until you were either missed the time cut off, can't go back out or your last one out there. Oh, the fun of that. That sounds good. Now, I will sense it all around the world is is every race 4.17 is it constructed that way so that there's some, you know, Right. If it's labeled as a back-yard event, yes. It will be 4.17. There are some spin-offs which have taken off too. And those might be three miles in an hour and you're doing more gain, right? Maybe it's a thousand feet of gain or something or maybe like ATY has one that they do around new years that is a mile I believe are 1.5 miles every 20 minutes wow but that's not an official backyard so they call it a last man standing so it's just a different format and it does bring I haven't done one like that have only done the backyard format, but I would imagine that would bring a whole different challenge. Yes. Because you only have 20 minutes to do that 1.5. So make it you you've run some successful races. You've stood on podiums before. You've set a record before and you've also run some races that you didn't do that. What's your most proudest accomplishment, completion, as you look back on your career so far? What would you say? Now that race, that's the one I'm most proud of and want to relish for the rest of my life. You know, you're right. I've been on the podiums, but the race that really stands out for me where I fall back on when it comes to grit and determination and just showing strength is run, rabbit, run. So this is a race that's in Colorado. It's in September. It's supposed to be the season changing. I was really looking forward to the colors that there were no colors, but it starts up as key slope. And you're going straight up and I might get the mileage wrong, but I think it's like three miles or five miles straight up, this ski slope. And then you're up at elevation for the whole entire race and the night usually gets incredibly cold. And it's just all over tough race. There's many factors going on you with many weather conditions. You're struggling to breathe. There's so many things. And I get at this race, I had a great climb up, I get to the top and I'm scooting along and I'm going, today I'm not feeling it. This isn't good, I'm six miles into this 100 mileer. And I just had an off day, right? And that was the first time honestly where I ever had just like that off day that happened during a race. I have it during running like training runs, but during a race was completely different and I'm going, okay, is this a mental thing or is this a physical thing? And when I realized it was for me at that particular day, it was mental, my physically I thought, fine, it is, well, what am I going to do here? Yeah. I'm not alive. What did you do? Imagine my seat here, man. Come on. So for that particular race, I did take naps. I went in the nice little ski lodge and took an hour nap and then did a loop out. There's like a little 10 mile loop and you come back to ski lodge. And so I took another hour nap when I came back. But I was determined regardless of how I felt. In the of sense it was mental, I'm gonna get this done. Like I came out here for this task. I want it to experience this course. And regardless, it's not my day today, and that's okay, but I still get to be in the woods. I still get to track through this beautiful landscape that I wouldn't do otherwise. And on top of it, I have like this extra challenge because I'm not feeling it today. And so instead of stressing the challenge of it, I just kind of flowed with it and went with it. And you might have been working on learning a lesson at that moment, at mile six or whatever that happened to you that paid dividends, oh, maybe even at the big backyard. I mean, who knows? You, you're at miles six and you're gonna go accomplish 600 miles later, but there may have been a lesson at, at, at RunRabbit that allowed you to perform well later. Right, and I really think challenging ourselves to do things where we have a 50% chance of success and a 50% chance of failure. That's where that growth lies, right? I might not make it, but let's do it anyways. There's a lot of growth that happens in that space. You know, there was a listener that wrote in a tip the other day, and we're gonna be using it for one of our clarity on the trail, to post foci clarity on the trail tips, but it pertains to this exact thing. And he said, when you go to a race, don't rely on the plan as much as you rely on the tools that you developed. So what you went in, you probably went in with a plan to do X time for the hundred miles or whatever, but that got thrown out really, really quick. And because you had tools, you then were able to adapt instead of quit. And that adaption, the tools that you said were We're sleep, a couple hours of sleep. And then you had a great experience it sounds like. Yeah, and I do want to expand on that more. You know, you're mentioning the tools and those tools that come to you also in training. Right, you're out there, you're training, you're on the trail, you're doing your long run, stuff goes wrong, shoes don't work, wrong nutrition, whatever it may be, you didn't bring enough water, and you're putting all these pieces together. How many of us do a hundred, and then we go back and we do another hundred, and it's a little bit better than that first one, because we have more tools in the toolbox. We have more knowledge of what we need. We have more knowledge of what our abilities are, what our needs are, how we're going to respond in different conditions. And that's why the training leading into the race is also so important. Yeah, so we kind of need those bad things to happen to us so that we can learn how to recognize that they're happening before they come down upon us. We get little clues before a big bonk.

There are things that we are experiencing that if we've never go to that bonk world and that bonk place,

that we wouldn't have been able to start to recognize it.

So it makes a veteran runner such an accomplished decision maker,

is they can start to see things early, start to use some tools early so they don't end up in that spot. Yes. And we all somewhat have to go and subway us to those tough knocks. I remember training for race. It was one of my early races down in Texas and it's hot and it's humid. I'm out in Banderah in the middle of summer And I didn't bring enough water and I'm still like three miles from the car and it's rocky and I And you start thinking oh my gosh. This is where like I'd never bought before but you start thinking oh my gosh This is where I'm gonna tell you there's gonna be no food. There's no water here Like just gonna walk walk really slowly to the cart and from, so then I knew, okay, well, that was enough water for me, that wasn't enough nutrition, but that was the first time I had experienced a bonk and what that all felt like. You know, it reminds me of the Buddhist philosophy. You know, Buddhists believe that hardships and challenges are part of life. And if you go through life thinking it's gonna be rainbows and unicorns, and then when something happens that challenges you or a hardship, things fall apart. If you're not expecting it, you think that's not the way the life should go. And this is similar, I think, to running these long races is that this is part of the sport. And it's going to come regardless of whether you want it to or not. It's part of the sport. So you need to have that toolbox, like you said, Meg, that those tools. So when it does happen, first of all, you don't get discouraged. And you say, Oh, okay, this is part of the race. This is part of the event. And now let's figure out how to get out of it or how to adapt. And I just love that. Thank you, Meg. I want to open up Meg's toolbox for a second. Okay. And ask her if she could hand someone a her favorite tool. Oh, good one. What would it be? There's always Montrose you can say. There's something that resonates with you that's probably one of the best tools because yeah, it might happen when you're out there and nobody else is around, right? So you have to have something that is very internal. There's always a mantra you can say to keep you going. But honestly, I as much as I don't like this, you do have to know your why. Yes. And it can be very, very simple. And that it always hurts me when somebody is like, what is your why for running? And my why is because I love it. Like that's it. Plain and simple, I just wanna be out there. So I feel like it needs to be deeper, but it really doesn't. It can be a very, very stark fist level, but it has to mean something to you. Yes. I wanna go back to the mantra thing, and if it's not too, you know, what are some of the mantras that you've used or What are some mantras that you've heard other people use? So for me, I'm a late in life runner. I didn't start running until I was 29 And my life before running was extremely unhealthy So when I get to those points on the trail where it's rough for me or I'm not feeling you know whatever it's always for me it's the this gratitude like I get to do this. I get to be out here I get to experience this and the little pieces that line me up to be out here I can't let those down. Let's rewind the clock a little bit before 29 when you were in that unhealthy state of living,

living choices, whatever they might be. What did, what was your opinion of this long run stuff?

Did you ever think that you would be setting records of 600 mile runs? Could you ever see that

from that position? I'd read a book about it. I'd read a book about somebody running a cross country. Well, I'm glad you picked that book up and not some other book. Right. When you were reading it, did you think, hey, this could be me. I want a piece of that. Or did you think this was just an adventure story that could be fictional as well as real? Yeah, I'm stuck on a plane. Why did I pick this? I can't go out and exchange it for anything. I gotta finish it. There was a part of me that was very intrigued by it, but then there was a huge part of me that was thinking, well, that could never be me. And that was 2005. So that was many years before I started running. What was the catalyst to change? It was a pretty slow process. I was doing a couple of miles every single day or every other day depending. And I actually met my now husband and he had signed up for half marathon and asked me if I wanted to run it with him and a friend. And so I said yes, and 11 wings later, we ran the half and I was hooked. I didn't know how that was gonna end. I don't know if they got married 11 weeks later. No, no, that was many years after that. Okay. Megan, I do wanna shift a little bit because this is a question that I often get accused of stealing Don's thoughts and his questions. This is exactly that. I admit we talked about this before the podcast and this was his question, but he forgot it. And so I'm going to take it. Megan, I don't even know what it is. I'm anxious to hear. Scott. When we go out to races,

one of the biggest aspects of the race is the clock, the time.

When the gun goes off, the timer starts.

When you go through the finish line, the timer stops.

And usually, in most cases, the fastest person wins the race.

In these big backyard races, that's not the case. There is a time component, but it's not the fastest runner or runners that win. Can you talk about that difference and why you are led to these big backyard races instead of the time, the traditional time

events. I do love time events too. I have a few on my schedule this year, but I do love the backyards and I think the reason why is you have this 60 minutes and 4.17 probably is doable in 60 minutes when you break it down but you have other stuff you might have to do in that time period. And so there's a strategy involved with how fast am I going to run this because I I can run it faster than I'm running it right now. But then I'm wasting too much energy or should I run it slower and have last time and can't to do what I need to do to get back out there. And even though I've done at this point, I've done four, I believe back here at Alters. I actually, at the last one, said, oh, my strategy works up until this point. But then when I get this late in the race, I might have to switch it because it's five minutes really enough time for sleep, 90 yards. Am I getting enough? Now I'm in a huge calorie deficit. Am I actually eating enough? Maybe I should eat in the crowd. So actually, it's a constant puzzle. And that, to me, it excites me. It's not how fast I can go. It's, can I solve this puzzle of time? I'm curious about that puzzle and especially the sleep component. You know six days you had to have I can only imagine you had to sleep at some point. What did that how did that manifest itself? Is it a five-minute dirt nap? Is it a ten-minute nap back at camp that you invested in by running a little bit quicker to get back to camp quicker? What is how to sleep work in a long race like that? So in the six day event you have 144 hours. You have as much time as you need to do whatever you need to in that time. A good sit-stay event will be on a smaller course so that you can see your crew constantly. And in this event, you can do as many loops as you want in an hour. So, 144 hours is a really long time to work with. So, what I've found is breaking it down into smaller sections,

whether that be six hours or eight hours. Four hours is a little bit small, that's a little bit too many chunks, but if you break it down into smaller chunks, you're breaking down the race and to manageable portions. So in this eight hours, I want to get this many miles or I'm I'm gonna go this many laps and when I'm done with this,

maybe I'll go sleep.

So this sleep. So the sleep situations and a lot of these, they kind of vary. The one I've done two six day races and one of them you have a upstairs, six days in the dome is an indoor track. So you're able to go upstairs and sleep in an enclosed area that's away from the track. Sleep, come back down. And in a six day, you're sleeping an hour to two hours. Some people sleep for six hours through the night, depending on what works for you. For me, I like the smaller chunks, so I'm doing six hour blocks of running and then short periods off the track. So I'm getting no more than two hours of sleep at a time over, well, every 12 hour period. As we're talking about puzzles, if we can, I'd like to go where you complete the 4.17 in the hour that you have. So you can either run very fast and have a lot of time before you have to start again, or you can just come in and grab something and you have to get back in the crowd to go again. Let's talk about that puzzle piece. How did that change throughout your strategy throughout the miles in something like that? Did you try to save more time by running fast? At what point do you say, you know what? I'm just gonna, I gotta sleep as much as I can. I mean, I'm just gonna pace myself. So I come in, grab something and go out and keep myself slow. Talk about that puzzle, that ratio of run rest in this 4.17. So it's definitely a matter of playing to your strengths.

Yeah. For me, the daytime, it's a little hot.

It can be humid, that sort of thing. So I'm taking my time. During the day, I'm taking my time. I'm showing up maybe through four minutes left to spare, enough to, if I have something going on, can fix it, grab something to eat, drink, get back out there. Now, when night comes along, it's a little bit cooler.

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