Like it's an elite mentality that exists through anyone who honestly steps up to the start line because it's so scary, right? Welcome to another edition of Trail Reign Nation. My name is Don Freeman.'m Scott War. In this episode we're going to talk with Dylan Harris about his latest film. He's an ultra-runner and a filmmaker and his latest film is called The Cut-Off, which follows back of the pack runners facing aid station cutoff time to avoid the disqualification. It's an honest look at the pressure, the doubt, and quiet determination that defines so many ultra runners and their experiences out there. If you've ever wondered whether you're moving fast enough, this is the one that's gonna hit close to home. Dylan, thanks for joining us. Tell us first of all, where are you located and how did this film all come about? Yeah, thank you for having me on, guys. I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the film. So thank you. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. So I've got that local connection to Aeroviper running and all things that happen here. And then as far as the idea for this film, I've been fortunate enough that my introduction to trail running through Jimil Curry happened just before he brought the Cokodona 250 to life. And so one of my first major stories within Alterunning was the inaugural year of Cocodona. And the race really seeped into my soul, my soul, my heart. I felt as I kind of gained more experience and went to different races around the country that I found that there are certain races that have these intangible characteristics that just present an opportunity for the runners and for the volunteers to have a really dramatic experience. I felt that Kokodona had that magic. And each year, you know, Jamil Curry, he is a huge advocate for telling stories in the space. And each year, it was bringing new exciting runners each year. And so we kept pursuing like, oh, that person would be exciting to work with, or let's film that group. But after the first year, I had the idea, once I learned about the cut-offs of a race and the back of the pack, and also, you know, for me it was all new, like learning about the back of the pack is like, it's not something to look down on to for a lot of those people who race there, they're proud of it and there's a culture behind it. And that's what I discovered. So from just that, after that first year, I had the idea of this film. And this doesn't always happen, but within minutes of having the idea, I had the title name, literally from the very beginning, the cutoff, it just felt so dramatic. And, you know, it was a timing thing, basically, to kind of wrap it up. It was a timing thing, and this film was for sure a passion project of mine, and something I felt that was unique and deserved to be told, the story deserved to be told. But it had to happen at the right time. And I think it did, ultimately. Boy, I love the concept. I've had the chance of watching, you know, runners up front racing for podium, the mid-pack runners, and then the group at the end coming up trying to catch the cutoff. And I don't think there's any runners that run harder with more heart and determination than those watching wins the cutoff. How much time do we have to get into this age station? And then out of this age station, it is a real push. The best part of the story, I think, is at the tail of the race in watching these athletes try to get it done. And that's why we find more people at the golden hour of most races that are standing up and cheering the most spectators out there is in that last hour, not necessarily for the mid pack or even the podium runners. Which came first, the chicken or the egg, were you a filmmaker before you were a trail runner or were you a trail runner that became a filmmaker? Yeah, that's a really good question. So my introduction to trails was through hiking. I was really in the through hiking in my early years. I kind of, I always talk about like the pendulum. At that point in my life, the pendulum was very much to being a hippie dirtbag, living in my truck and going on these like solo adventures to discover myself, you know. And ultimately I ended up figuring I wanted to go to school and I decided to do journalism because it was kind of the one thing that I felt when I had a homework assignment to write a paper or a story to tell. It was the one thing that I genuinely cared about just myself. It wasn't about the teacher. Wanted to tell a good story. So I pursued journalism and found a camera. And then it ultimately became, the camera just was an excuse to like, find beautiful places and go on epic adventures. And I found that through through hiking. And then it just so happened that when I wasn't through I can I figured, like, gosh, how could I keep this fitness? So every time I did a through hike, I didn't have to relearn it and just kill myself out there. And that's when I discovered local trail races. I started doing a few marathons and I was just doing photography so I was like pursued photo journalism and I was you know I was doing everything and anything I was doing social media for restaurants I was doing you know weddings and family portraits anything I just decided that I'm gonna make this happen, right? And so whatever that looks like, I'm here for the journey, this is the long haul, this isn't, I don't need anything right now, I wanna do this for the rest of my life. And so I was doing anything and everything, leaning into the photography, and it wasn't until I decided to move back from Colorado to Arizona where I decided I wanted to get more involved in the, you know, I went to Colorado to pursue the mountains and pursue the outdoor culture. And when I came back to Arizona, I realized like, man, I could find that right here where I grew up. That is when things just started clicking. Ultimately, what I cared about was starting to be what I was shooting. And yeah, and that's when I got connected with Jamel Curry, basically. So you went to school for journalism and you love the stories. And through your films, you're trying to tell stories. I'm interested. What kind of stories did you think you were going to tell and did they meet your expectations or did they exceed or differ from your expectations? Yeah, that's a good question. I grew up playing competitive sports and almost everybody I played sports with either went to really great colleges or ended up playing professionally. And I didn't know the effect that that had on my mentality growing up, but once I sort of separated from it and left sport, I realized like what was left behind. There's a bit of a competitiveness. There's a need to be inspired into fit in sort of and in access people that I feel we're at a high level. And ultimately that's just kind of what the camera presented to me. I think that's what I gravitated towards it. And when I discovered trail running, trail running to me was the perfect blend. I talked about the pendulum earlier of me when I was 19, 2021. I was living in my truck and going on these big long through hikes, that part of me was met by a competition, which I discovered in trail running. It was this blend of elite performances combined with culture and passion and lifestyle, basically. And so when I found trail running to me, I just felt that there was a story in every corner. And, you know, what really kind of grabbed a hold of me and said, like, I'm gonna lean into this for a while, is looking at films from the past. Like, you talk about Billy Yang, JB Benna, Dean Leslie, stuff that Solomon TV was doing back in the day. All of these things, to me, as I looked back, kind of built the foundation of ultra running. You know, like we can all relate people who are in a running. You can all relate being on a treadmill or sitting on the couch late at night with a glass of wine. And you're watching one of your favorite trail running films. And you're three-fourths of the way through it and you're just filled with inspiration. And you don't even finish the film. You turn it off, you go on ultra sign up and you sign up for that next race because you're just so inspired, right? And to me, that's what it just felt like this place where I could tell stories in so many different directions and really like reach people. You know, whereas like if you're out in the main, in the real world, there's so many directions you can go. But here it just felt like a community that was ready to hear what I potentially had to say, you know, in the sport. So. Now, Dylan, just for clarification, three quarters of the way through the movie or three quarters of the way through the bottle of wine, which is that it inspires you to turn off the TV and get out on the trail. That's a great question. I think we could start something new with that. It's like, hey, you gotta keep up. You know, as you stated earlier, you started through hiking and then evolved into trail running. And as we're talking, there might be an advantage to that. A lot of people start out, say, with a 5K and move to the trail running in the longer events. Imagine you carried some good lessons from through hiking that he moved into your trail running. Yeah, man, I never thought about that actually, but it's a really great point. I mean, my first trail running race was a marathon, and I decided to do it only one week after returning from my first through hike of the Pacific Crest Trail because I was thinking, like, gosh, my legs feel stronger than they've ever felt in my entire life. I haven't ran in four or five months or whatever, but I wonder if it translates. And it's still the fastest time I've ever ran in America, you know? I remember being 20 miles in and feeling the best I'd felt all day and I went faster from 20 miles to the end of the marathon. But other than that, you know, I don't think it's as much about the running that through hike prepared me for. To me, it opened my mind up to what the world can offer when you put yourself out there, when you make yourself vulnerable. In through hiking, I thought I was going out on these missions to like prove myself to the world and prove myself that I was worthy. But ultimately what I found is just that what I really wanted needed was to understand that the world was very welcoming place. And like if you have a goal, there's people there to support you. You know, and that's what through Hiking taught me, basically. And trail running I found the exact same thing, no matter what your goal is. You know, everybody wants you to just get to that finish line, right? Well, I really like that. You're a comment that you made right there. I know that, what, Urika! I gotta push it. I gotta push the Urika button. That is a goal, two golden nuggets that we have to recognize and go back and restate. First, first, an anecdotal experience that hard long distances on your feet, not fast, will actually make you a better runner. And the number two thing is, is the community aspect that if you have this personal goal, the community is there to support that goal.

So those, I had to press Urika Don,

sorry, interrupt you.

Did it mess you up on your question?

No, no, I can always bring my question back.

Okay.

But, you know, we very rarely Dylan ask for audience

participation, but I've got to ask for some comments.

Do we want to keep this Urika thing?

Scott is real, he's into this button. I think it's distracting and annoying. And then he

repeats the golden nugget as if we didn't hear it. So I think some audience participation right in, do something, send up some spokes signals. I don't care what you do. So here's where I think that the benefit of through hiking, you became an amazing problem solver. You listened to your body, you could see that something was starting to happen, you had to get some some create an action to get rid of it and that same exact problem solving technique is used with trail running. I think there's I think that's one of the biggest benefits and you probably didn't go out too fast for your first time because big risk. You didn't have to put the 5K pace on. You said slow steady wins the race and I'm not going to bury myself here physiologically and tear myself up so I won't finish. So you probably started out with a good, some good guardrails. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean it's the through hiking allowed me to deal with my issues on the trail, right? Like I wasn't able to call my mommy and have her come pick me up, right? Like the reality is is I had I would have aches have aches and pains that, if you have an experience before, you would think, maybe gosh, maybe I'm injured. Like, maybe I need to get, but it's those things that you're kind of forced to deal with to learn your body more, understand what you're capable of mentally. That stuff was huge and through hiking because it's the day in and day out grind, right? So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Dylan, you've done, this isn't your first film. You've done other films where you highlighted maybe some of the front of the pack runners. What did you find different about these personalities in the cutoff? Were they similar characteristics or were they different characteristics? Can you expound on that? I think something that I've discovered about myself is that regardless of the intention with their race or their performance or whatever if they're elite celebrity or just

a normal person. To me, it's always about discovering who, like bringing the human element to it, who are you outside of this sport? What has led you here? What makes you human? What makes you relatable because running 250 miles and isn't always so relatable. But, you know, to me, Jeff Garmier said something to me a long time ago, and that I remember who he's ran this race every single year since it's inception. He has a lot of long trail records. He's an awesome guy. But he said that just simply it whatever gets you out there, whatever gets you out there. And that's always stuck with me. And so I never judge somebody for their intentions with why they're out there. The fact that they're out there doing something positive for themselves is incredible, right? And to answer your question, difference between the elites versus what I found at the very back, you know, the elites have the experience in the history. And I think what I found with the elites is that there are people who are committed to doing something better each time they do it, right? They, the way that they enjoy the experience is by trying to push the limits each time in their own body. And the difference I see at the very back of the pack, it's not too dissimilar, but what they're seeking to me is an experience. And I think they have the same desires to push that experience because we all know throughout life, as you get more comfortable, you're seeking something that spikes those endorphins, that is the next level for yourself so you can grow as a person. But what they're out there for is more, they're not crunching numbers. I mean, when they get close to the cutoff, that's where it kind of differs, and that density comes back, and the numbers come back into play. But to me, they're out there for the experience. They're out there for the community, and it'd be a part of something that like they're really inspired by. And so it's different in that sense. Well, you're a comment about Elite Runner. I kind of turned that around in my head and thought, well, you're right. out there that have the motivation or the why to get out there and lace them up that day or put a bib on really qualifies as elite. They're different. Most of the people aren't doing it. And if you're racing against yourself or what you potentially can do that day, regardless of your fitness level, whether you're peaking at your fitness level or you're just kind of getting it done and you're not sure in your mind if you've trained enough to pull this off, you still have to get that vehicle, that body in the most efficient way down that trail to the finish line. And every decision you make from pace to fuel to everything contributes to that success. And that makes you elite if you're willing to do that. This is a really good point. So this is something that Michael Verstieg has talked a lot about. Michael Verstieg believes that experience is the most interesting thing. And so, but the reality is if you were to compare what the people in the back of the pack are doing to the people in the front of the pack, in theory, everybody is moving at their perceived hardest pace. There's a comfortable pace for every single person because being out there for a long time isn't necessarily the goal for most. The goal is to move within yourself and push yourself at times to get to the finish line and accomplish this thing and have an experience. But if everybody is moving at their perceived threshold, then ultimately what the people are doing at the back of the pack is wildly impressive in its own right, because they're on their feet for twice as long, often. I mean, two more nights out there, and they're still moving forward, and it's not like they're not feeling in those first hundred miles, it's not like they're not feeling the intensity of the situation and the need to push and keep moving forward. They're feeling that just like the elites are, but the elites, you know, they have a dedication to this craft that's allowed them to, you know, to train and prepare over time to like build up their fitness. But they're taking nothing away from the mentality. Like it's an elite mentality that exists through anyone who honestly steps up to the start line because it's so scary, right? But anyone who crosses that finish line, they had to showcase an elite mentality to get there for sure. Yeah, I've said it before and I going to say it again, but I haven't said it to you yet, Dylan. So that makes it safe. If every runner got into a big circle, they're all in their bib and it's the end of the race and you looked over across and found the elite runner and they looked and found the cutoff group, the back of the pack, they both had equal admiration. It's like, how is that person so fast? And the elite runner that's up front standing on a podium said, how is that person so tough? I couldn't go another 10 minutes the way I was pushing. How did they survive twice as long? So there's admiration to both sides and that's what builds our community and our culture. Yeah, I mean, if you want to a really quick example of this, look more far farther than in 2024 when I was filming the chase, right? At the very end of the race, hopefully everyone's seen it by now, so I'm not spoiling anything, but Harry Subbertus, who we didn't follow, you know, we had a very deep field and you know, we recognized his talent and his performances prior, but it's not in the five that we chose to follow. He ultimately came to win the race. And with every athlete that was in the film, I followed up, I wanted to follow up immediately to get a post-race interview while they looked, you know, the way that they looked in their mind was, right? And so I reach out to Harry and his girlfriend. Like, you guys got to be a part of this film. That was spectacular and just so much respect. Like, is there any way I can come find you guys for a post-race interview? And Harry's girlfriend's like, yeah, he's gonna be here for like, he sends me the location, he's gonna be here for six hours. But if you come by around this time, I think he'll be able to have a break. And Harry was at one of the aid stations before on course volunteering for like a six hour shift, the day after he won the race instead the course record, because he wanted to support all the runners there and then even just last year at the cutoff, he was there at Golden Hour for the very final finishers as well. And so that just shows, right? That's what the community has built, built on. That's the foundation of trail running to me. You know, we joke about it sometimes and forgive me for waxing philosophical here. Sometimes we say that this is a trail running helps us become better human beings, but I think what you just

stated is very important for not just our community

and trail running, but for us in our communities.

And that is regardless of where you see people,

whether it's economic or political or whatever,

we need to recognize that we're all racing our own race or living our own lives. and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and to realize, man, wherever they are, if they're the front of the pack, they're at the back of the pack, they're doing their hardest and they're playing the game and and i think that that's something that that um i think i got out of what you said that's gonna help me become a better human being so thank you for for that yeah thanks i totally agree like there's so many parallels to normal life 100 100%. Hey, let's talk about this movie.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we got to meet Dylan

and realize that, you know, he's one of us, no doubt.

But Dylan made a movie.

I have a question.

So when you did the chase, you said,

...