People are obsessing over this.

I was obsessed last year and it's hard to describe it until maybe you go and try it yourself.

It was the most transformative, ultra-running experience I've ever had in my career.

Really? Welcome the trailhead of trail runner nation.

We're glad you're here. We're going to go on a trail run, a virtual trail run, or you can actually go on a trail run and put your earphones in. We are here every week and we invite guests that are going to help you become a better runner, be motivated, get out there and enjoy your time on the trail better. And maybe that's going to translate into being a better human. And today, Scott, on this run, we are going to have a great discussion. Now, we're going to pause at the peak of the hill and look back at the past. We're going to look forward to the future and we're going to make predictions about where our sport has been and where it's going. Welcome to another edition of Trail Rear Nation. My name is Don Freeman.

I'm Scott War. And Don and I were talking the other day, how trail, I actually talked quite a bit about this, probably too much about this, how trail and ultra running has changed since we first got into it. And boy, in the last decade or so, there's been some massive changes in, you know, the participation has grown, the media coverage has been, has matured, races have scaled up, expectations around athlete experience or the cool storytelling that we have now and professionalism. They're all very different than where we were just a few years ago. Our guest today has a front row seat to that evolution. Jamil Curry is the founder and CEO of Aira Viper running. He's one of the most influential race organizations in the sport and the mind behind events like the Kokodona 250. He's also deeply involved in the media side and has been for a number of years, but most recently running Ultra Running magazine. And this gives him a rare perspective that spans from directing, race directing, to media, to athletes, to brands, and to fans. So Jamil isn't only just observing where Trail and Ultra Running is headed, he's actively shaping it. So today we're going to talk to him about the state of Ultra Running here in 2026, how the sports evolved, what's changing right now and what really matters for the future. So Jamil, thanks for joining us. That was a beautiful intro, but I think we forgot one thing. He's a runner too and a good one. Oh, yeah, by the way, by the way, he's a participant. Hey, Jamil, from your standpoint, in the years that you've been in trail running, give us a 30,000 foot view of where we've come in the last decade or so. What have been the biggest changes you've seen from a macro standpoint? Yeah, sure. Well, first off, thanks for having me here. It's great to be back on. And yeah, I feel like I'm in a unique space, being leading some of the new wave of what's happening in the sport,

uh, but also understanding where it came from. I ran my first Ultramarathon in 2005. So I've been doing this almost half my life now and very passionate number one, just about the sport. Like you said, I'm a participant number one. I love the sport of ultrasonic and what it's It's done for me and in almost everything I do,

I wanna share that experience with others and provide ways for more people to find out about this amazing sport and participate, push their limits, build community, get out to the outdoors. That's kind of number one driver and that's kind of what guides us. And how did the whole era of ViPa running platform or mega organization start? It started originally just myself and my family volunteering at other races. We just wanted to be involved. I think one of the first races I volunteered at was across the years, which is this fixed time race out here in Arizona. It was the first ultra that I ever did. And it just stemmed from that. I had the opportunity through just showing up and volunteering at that event to inherit and take over the Havelina 100 and first directed that in 2008. It had happened five times previously. That's kind of how I got my foot in the door and eventually like the next year started air of IBerunning and our whole mission at the time was to create more trail running access in the Phoenix area. Havillina was held at McDown Mountain Regional Park and there were all these other regional parks in our local trail system that didn't have any events. Long time trail runners and Phoenix hadn't even been there to explore those trail systems. And so us creating events in those parks brought runners to those trails and that was really the start of it all. Jimil, I'm going to, like we do as we're running down the trail, really running down the trail. Sometimes we take, hey, this looks like a cool trail. Let's take it. I'm going to take it on a quick diversion. You mentioned across the years and I can't help myself but ask you about this year's race. And I couldn't tell you one, but I could tell you that the great Anne Traceon was there. Tell us how in the world did you convince her to come to the event and then tell us those who didn't don't know what happened, what actually happened while she was there. It's quite an amazing story. Oh it's incredible. So she came to across the years, I believe in 2018. And I think even years

and years ago, like when she was in her running prime, she did across the years way back in the day. So she came in 2018. And I think she did either the 72 hour or the six day, was just having fun, but then kind of disappeared off the scene. And she's been struggling just health wise with really bad rheumatoid arthritis. So for her to participate, she asked if she could bring a walker, number one. And I think she was signed up for the 48 hour originally. Her goal was to just do a 50k just with her condition. So, number one asked if she could use the walker. Of course we said yes,

and then she asked, well, can I get more time? Maybe move up to the six days so I can get my 50k done. She just didn't know how she'd be feeling. So I mean, absolutely. If Anne Tracin's asking you, you say yes. All right. We want her to be part of the event. So she, this was just her own doing. She she signed up, she came to the event and it was incredible.

Her energy out there, her I like to say her feistyness, just the way she jokes around and interacts with everyone on course was amazing to see. And she did over 100 miles in the six days. I think she got her buckle like a day ago for 100. She said she had buckle fever. And it was just so incredible. I mean, there were, there's people that are out there that come to across the years every year. And everyone looks up to Anne so much. I mean, for a lot of people, she was there running hero. Right. Back in the day when she was winning Western States 14 times in a row, almost winning these races outright, just an absolute legend. And I couldn't tell you the number of autographs she gave out on course it across the years. The coolest thing about Ann is for every autograph she gave out, she made them sign her bib. So by the end of the week, her bib was completely covered with everyone else's autographs as well. So a true champion of the sport and is just so amazing. And we're going to see more of Ann. I believe she is going to be signed up for Jackpot Ultras in February. So if you want to come out and do laps with Ann in an event, check out Jackpot. And I believe she'll be back at across the years next year. So it's just, it's a gift to have her around the sport. It's amazing. I think I read somewhere that she had buckle fever. I'm thinking, and Trason, who has 14 kugers, has buckle fever. I just, I mean, that tells you, you know, this episode is about the state of our sport. And I think that that can be a message that we can take, that somebody that was that influential and that dominant still can have buckle fever. I think that's just amazing. What about that draw that the buckle has? Buckle fever is real. I mean, people push and train and sign up and travel for a buckle. What do you think that buckle fever is all about? I mean, I think it can be mostly symbolic. I think it's like a big out there goal that seems ridiculous to some. Like, maybe impossible when you first think about it. And yeah, I don't wanna get into the burrito stuff maybe yet, or I think I think about it's like, last year when I was doing that burrito challenge, like the winning the years worth of burritos was that initial carrot for me? I'm sure there's people that are listening and don't know anything about this burrito thing you did last year. Give us a quick overview of what that is and then continue. So Strava in partnership with Chipotle puts together this challenge where they designed these short course segments. It's a Strava segment. They're about 0.2 miles, two city blocks. They're anchored next to a Chipotle restaurant. It was in 25 cities. If you run the most segments

in the month of January, and it's all locked through the Strava app, you win a year's worth of burritos from Chipotle. So I jumped on that challenge last year and ended up running over 730 miles in the month of January and over 2,000 segments and winning the Tempey version of the event event and you know that burrito Prize was my initial like buckle fever thing that got me out there But it was really about so much more was about you know the running and the The transcendent experience that I had over the course of that month and the competition I had with not only myself But you know another competitor that was there with me. Well, that's awesome. That's awesome. So, Jamil, if we added up the number of calories you consumed in Chipotle burritos, and the number of calories it took to earn that reward, which side of the equation do you think had a little more weight? Well, yeah, I think it was funny. I'm sure the amount I spent that month on like parking fees, food, towing gas to get to the segment was like, what is the prize? So it really wasn't about the prize. Are you sick of burritos yet? Do you still have a hand cream for a Chipotle fajita burrito? You know, it's funny. We, what it ended up being was 52 free entrees and I didn't do a very good job of budgeting my use. I think I still have close to 20 left and they expire in about three weeks here. So I'm gonna have to make some friends and treat them to lunch here these next couple weeks. Hey, one of the things that I wanted that I've been thinking of, and I think one of our friends, Bob Crowley, sent us an article I can't remember where it was from. We're talking about one of the evolutions in the last decade or so in ultra running has been the buckle was the big thing, the 100 mile buckle. That was like the pinnacle of, you know, you finally, you train yourself, you do, you know, you

used to maybe do marathons and you go to a 50Ks and you get kind of used to that and then you go to 50 Mylar's and then you go to 100Ks and the crem de la crem was the 100 Mylar and then I can just started the 200s and then you started the coca-donna 250 and it seems like maybe these 200 plus mile races who've kind of overshadowed the 100 mile races in my opinion. What is your opinion as you are very much more involved in it than I am? Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. I think that just like the marathon was the big thing for so long. And then, you, it kind of jumped up to the 100-mile-er when people are looking for the next frontier of challenge for themselves. I think we've seen the same thing happen here where 100-milers, there's so many of them, people do them, often with like they're doing them all the time now. Like I don't, Personally, I can only do a few a year, but it does kind of become maybe a bit routine. It's crazy to say that, but like I want that next frontier. After I did, you know, 15 or 20 hundred miles, I'm like, what's beyond that? Like I think it's natural for those of us going up a distance to wonder. And the other observation I've had just with Cocadona, it feels weird, like I'll be at the 100 mile mark, you know, year after year after year, I go to the AIDS station. And it's so early in the Cocadona experience to be at mile 100. It's like, the leaders are now coming through there, before the sun comes up on day two. And it's exciting to think there's like, they're just barely getting started. And that would be like the end of most 100 mile races. And I get excited because of the storytelling around these endurance challenge that everyone's on. There's just so much time for experiences to happen out there, for drama around the leaders of the race, and what's going to happen, and the storytelling that we can do around this event, and what people are accomplishing out there. So to me, it's just the rhythm of it is so cool to have so much time to be out there and to explore and experience it. Yeah, and I think as a community, we're still wrapping our heads around this 200 mile plus event. How to eat, how to sleep, how to train. There's a lot of stuff that was produced information for the 100 mile. And when it doubled, we've got to rethink some of the strategies. Yeah, I mean, you have to sleep in these 200-mileers. Even the elites, they have to sleep at some point, even if it's just a micro-nap. We don't have to talk about napping or sleep deprivation that much in most 100-mile know, the elite end of the stick. They're just going

straight, most of us are going straight through. You're not usually planning a sleep break at the western states 100, you know, or Rocky Reptile. And it's like, you might take a short nap if you're having a bad day, but most everyone is just going right through. It's a, it's like one effort. And that's not the case with the 200 plus.

I think that this new frontier that's been created is very intriguing. Do you think that it is at the expense of the shorter distances? Do you think that the 50K has gone by the wayside? Do you think that there's still a demand for a 50K out there? I think there's room for both to be honest, and I don't know if the numbers would show there's a decline in the 50K. I think it's probably the opposite. It's a great intro point for everyone, or for the sport. I think I'm seeing growth in the 50K distance for a lot of our events, and for a lot of the biggest 50Ks out there. Maybe there's not as as much coverage or excitement around the 50K distance, but I think it's alive and well. I think the distance that maybe has the toughest time right now is the 50 mileer, which I think is an amazing ultra distance, but the 100K is kind of overshadowed it the last few years. You know, that's a good point. I mentioned in the intro that there's this new media coverage of some of these big events and covering the races. I don't know whether anybody's covering the 50k, 50miler or maybe even the 100k like they are from a media standpoint. Am I just not seeing it or or is that, is it because there's not as many stories to your point? There's a lot of stories in a 250 mile desert race, but maybe not in a 50K that's going to take 10 hours to finish. I think, well, we definitely see the interests for the golden ticket races, extreme interest. I mean, people want to watch that. I think the Golden Ticket chase, that's very exciting to kind of feature what's going on. But I mean, 50Ks are becoming so fast these days and they're almost like kind of uneventful from the elite perspective. They're just nailing it, you know. There's not a lot of drama. Maybe there is some lead change in there,

but it does happen so fast. So it's just, it's a different type of coverage as far as when I look at it from immediate perspective. I think it's exciting to cover. I think it's really cool, but it's just different. You're talking about media and coverage. Boy, there's been a huge advance in that, in that sense.

The races, or they have better technology and cameras

and reporters.

Let's talk a little bit about the difference between you know 15 years ago a long race and one today and the coverage that goes out we can all watch it. Yeah, I mean the I mean back in the day you had to wait until the next printed edition of Ultra-Ending Magazine find out what happens, you know like read the race report, get the results even. So yeah, 15 years ago, I mean, we were probably, I don't even know, are we on, you go up to the email list, serve the ultra list, where I went to get a lot of my information. Then there were some aggregated websites starting to form. Of course, I run FAR was kind of leading the way as far as their video interviews they would do. Their Twitter updates. That's how we followed the sport for a long time. It was incredible when we would get, on course updates at AIDS stations, just read a list on a Twitter post of, oh, this guy, here's, you know, they have a stopwatch, they have a time gap,

taking notes, getting it out there to us. Like, that was riveting at the time. And it's just now

it's so cool to see the evolution where we can just now watch it in real time. Do you think that's

helped the sport grow? Where people are sitting, you know on a Saturday or a Sunday watching You know one of these races unfold live on their computer or on their phone and they're thinking What are the possibilities for me the mid-pack runner or backpack runner? Do you think it's do you think it's helped with the media coverage to get more participation? I know it has, because we have people that say, I somehow found X livestream, whatever it is, Cogadona or Black Canyon or something, maybe Western States live broadcast, and that was my entry point into the sport, and I got hooked in, and now I'm doing 50Ks or 100 Mylers. I want to talk a little bit about technology and how it's changed and I'll just pull back for a second and talk about football. You know, you get 10 yards, you get a first down, but they're going to call the chains out and the guys run out there with the chains and they measure it and they pull it and they go, you know, an inch and a half short. But I don't think I've seen chains for a a long time because they're using hopefully technology, where they've got a laser beam or something going down. So we don't have this play of these chains being run out there. Do you think there'll be a time when trail running doesn't have trail markers, doesn't have flags being put on trees, and we just follow a GPS map on our phone or on our watch? Yeah, I could see it. I think more and more races are sometimes requiring it. I mean, we require it at races like Coca-Dona. I think I just got a new Garmin watch recently. And if I'm wearing my AirPods and I have a course on navigation mode, it'll actually tell me turn by turn in my ear, where I need to go. It's like left turn coming ahead, left turn now. It's just telling me exactly what to do. So who knows? Maybe we wear glasses in the future and you can just see the, like, an overlay of the route is like alerting you and pointing you. I think there could be a world that wow hey jimil i'll bring up a little pet peeve of mine and don's gonna um and he's gonna shrug his shoulders and shake his head and and ryan can edit this out if we did deem necessary but from a race director standpoint let's say it's a single track race and it's in the mountains. Why do they have to put 15 ribbons along a single track where there's no turns? Why did the course markers? When there's no way that you're going to get off course, but there's still like 20 ribbons on this short single track. It's all good. I mean, to be honest, I think you're saying like runner expectations start to come into play. You know, back when I got into the sport, it was pretty low expectations and like low promises on part of the race directors. And oftentimes the race directors were just volunteers and they're just out there because they love the sport. They're just putting this together in their free time. They don't necessarily have all these resources. So it was pretty casual. But now in this day and age, people pay a lot of money to do a race. They expect a well-marked course or the race director themselves. Here's complaints. Oh, I didn't see a confidence marker. Oh, I got lost. dealing with those headaches, I think that's maybe what drives that is like, oh, well, I want to have a really well-march course. Gotta have confidence markers every point one miles. It's just an evolution. I have never heard that term confidence marker. Oh, yeah. There's no turn, but it keeps you knowing that you're on the right route. You don't have to double, double think. I get that. I get that.

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