Yeah, especially in this sport because there are so many unknowns.

You need to be progressive with your nutritional intake in exactly the same way as you are with your miles and everything else.

And people are just not as conditioned to giving the same care and attention to their nutrition as they are with the rest of their training program.

We can use science as a guide, but oftentimes it's kind of learning on the job and figuring out your own part. Welcome to the Trailhead of Trail Runner Nation where we go on virtual trail runs every week with guests that are going to help us learn more about our health, about our fitness, hopefully making running more enjoyable and fulfilling. And maybe that turns us into better human beings. Well, I've definitely become a better human being after this discussion with Dr. Nick Tiller, learning about all the things out there that I thought were helpful. Hey Scott, you know the feeling when the weather turns and you realize that your running gear is still stuck in summer mode. Yeah, that first cold rain or wind gust that makes you say, I should have checked out my John G. Winter gear. Exactly. John G. Just dropped your winter kit upgraded lineup. We're talking about running tights and pants like the Borrio fleece tight for cozy warmth or the trail tight for all season versatility. And for the top half of your body, I'm loving the Aura's Ultra fleece hoodie. It's like running in a cloud that actually breathes. Or when the skies open up, the rain runner pack jacket it keeps you dry without slowing you down. Hey, it's hard enough out there without having the right gear and that's where John G comes in. Don't forget the details like the gloves, the beanies and the brand new thermal runner insulated cap. That's perfect for frosty mornings. You can find it at all of John G's weather ready gear at JohnG.com. And as a bonus for trail runner-nation listeners, get 10% off your order with a code trail runner. Welcome to another edition of trail runner-nation. My name is Don Freeman. And my name is Scott War. I was recently perusing through my ultra- running magazine and I came across an article and the first sentence sucked me in. The first sentence talked about a sixth century Olympic athlete named Milo of Croton and he drank ox blood and ate raw animal flesh.

And that was his nutrition. And I thought, that's crazy. And then I started thinking, we've gone through this evolution of what we as athletes should be consuming. We've gone through the carb craze where all we did was carb load, you know, the big pasta feeds right before the race. And then we went to, I think, an area where we said no carbs, all fat become fat adapted and don't eat anything during training and during racing. And so we were joined by the author of that article. The article's name, if you want to go look it up in Ultra Running magazine, is protein while racing. Training runs to predict performance and progressing to ultra. And it's just a short fun article by Dr. Nick Tiller. And we decided to have him on. He lives over on the other side of the pond. So we had to do some timing things to get him on here. But Nick, my first question is, is where are we with these macronutrients? What should we be eating? Should we maybe find an ox and poke a knife in their jugular and load it up with some good ox blood before our run? Yeah, great question. I'm sure some people would advocate for that and people, you know, each to their own as the saying goes and you can't tell somebody who's been following a keto diet for the last six years and they have great energy and they're performing great not to follow a keto diet and you can't tell a vegan or not to be a vegan and we can advocate for all sorts of science-based diets and eating plans but at the end of the day people are going to find their own way and if something as long as something is keeping you healthy and you can train and compete on it then it's not always a very good idea to tell them that they're wrong. That said, we do have scientific research and scientific studies for a reason, and we have expert nutritionists and dieticians whose job it is to understand these things. If you have a problem with your car, if your engine's making a noise like a blender full of quarters, then you're gonna go to an expert mechanic. If your knee blows up and you're limping around for three weeks, you go and see a surgeon or a physiotherapist, if you're 14, these clushing a chest, you're probably gonna go and see a cardiologist. So we have experts for a reason because they know more about these things than we do. So if you really wanna understand about these things for trail running and ultra running, then I think it's a good idea to go and see an expert. And generally speaking, experts will advocate for a relatively high carbohydrate diet, that is still the scientific consensus if you want to maximize performance. And the guidelines have been, and still have been for many years and still are, so try and consume about 60% of your calories from carbohydrate sources, predominantly low glycemic index, these are slow release carbs. People can compete on less and again, some people do sweat by low carbohydrate diets, but those people are generally the exception to the raw. We also advocate for high protein diets, that's the other important macro nutrient because protein is absolutely crucial for the growth and maintenance of muscle tissue. And I think there's a bit of a stigma that high protein diets are for body builders and your gym bros and people that are trying to grow muscle mass, but actually it's for anybody who is putting the muscle under a great deal of stress. That includes trail runners. Anytime you feel sore after a race or a hard training session, if you're doing downhill repeats, for example, then you're going to need to up your protein intake to help the muscle recover. So carbs and proteins are still very, very important. And that advice has been around for decades now. And I don't think it's going to change any time soon. Having said that, there are more nuances that we understand now. I'm sure we'll get into those. know one of the things that I learned or I shouldn't say learned, I heard from a non-expert, just the trail bro, you know, out on the trail just hearing it from other runners is you don't want to consume a whole lot of protein during a workout or during a race because you'll have GI issues. Is that really the case? Does protein cause some GI disruption and issues on the trail? Can do. Yeah. I mean, if you're getting a high protein intake, protein is a little bit harder to digest. It obviously depends on where you're getting a protein from. Protein foods that contain high amounts of protein also tend to contain quite a lot of fat as well, not always, but they tend to go hand in hand. So you don't want to be consuming large quantities of this because obviously when you're racing, especially if you're racing hard, when you're doing an ultra marathon, obviously the intensity is lower. But you get blood flow redirected away from the digestive system more towards the exercising muscles where the oxygen and the nutrients are needed. So it's harder to break down a lot of these food stuff. So you don't want to be getting high protein intake during training or racing, but I think it's often neglected completely. And if you ask any given athlete, most athletes understand that protein is important for day-to-day recovery of the muscle. And yet some athletes go out and they race for 12 hours, 24 hours without taking in any protein whatsoever. And you wouldn't go for that period in your day-to-day life without taking protein. So why go for that long during a race without taking in some protein as well? You still need to focus on muscle recovery. So certainly you don't want to be getting in loads of protein or loads of fats. I think some will be important just to, for lots of reasons, not just to recover the muscle, but to avoid taste fatigue, protein and fat sources of food tend to contain sodium as well, you know, for salts. So, there are lots of reasons why you might want to get some protein in your diet during trading and racing. When I first started running, you know, back in the early 2000s, there was a company and I need to look this up for you and maybe you even know off the top of your head. There was a company called Accelerade and it was a drink that was protein and carbon. It was supposed to be this magical ratio and I'm trying remember, it's like four parts carb to one part protein or something like that. You're telling us, Dr. Nick, that we should be taking in some protein if it's a longer training run or a longer race to put some of that in. How much and of what kind of protein should we be looking at? What's the ratio? If we run by an AIDS station table and they have all of these things that are out on the table, what should we be looking for? It's a really good question and there are no guidelines on this because it's not really been systematically studied. If you look at runners or any endurance athletes who are competing in very long races, So let's say something that is longer than six hours and altruis of course tend to be 12 hours, 24 or 48 hours. Then people tend to eat less of the, I suppose portable foods like gels and energy bars and energy drinks, sports drinks, those kinds of things, they tend to eat more real food.

And especially as the duration of the race goes on

and people start getting taste fatigue,

they start craving more real food.

And that's when it's much easier,

because if you start eating more regular types of food,

especially if you have a race that supplies this kind of stuff

of periodically aid stations,

it's much easier to get in proteins, carbohydrates, and fats because you're eating more meals. So there are no official guidelines on this because it's not really been studied. But certainly, I think if you're racing for, every six to 12 hours, you wanna be getting at least 20 grams of protein in, which actually isn't a lot. I mean, it's a small protein feed. But if you can get 20 grams, at least every six hours or so, in addition to the whatever it is, 60, 80, 100 grams of carbohydrate that you're targeting every hour, 20 grams of protein, every, you know, six to 12 hours is not actually that much. And if you're eating regular food more and more as the race progresses, then that should be relatively easy. I'm sure you guys have lots of stories and anecdotes that you share with your readers, but I think back to some of the longest races that I've done. And after, yeah, typically after about six or eight hours, the idea of necking another gel or another sports trend just makes me want to puke. And it makes some people actually puke. And when I did a race, you know, I did marathon day-save the race across the Sahara some years back. And obviously it's extremely hot. You're sweating a lot. You're losing a lot more sodium and salts. You start craving more of that to get it in. And after about the third or fourth day of racing, pretty much all I was eating was beef jerky. I was eating salted nuts, that kind of stuff, some instant mashed potato, which is obviously high-carbs, it was just like so salty. So I was just craving high salt food and any time I could get my hands on beef jerky one way or another, that was like the best day. So you start craving more and more of this stuff anyway. And as long as you have, to some extent, practice it in training, and as long as you have some experience doing it in racing, it's unlikely to cause GI upset as long as you're not hitting it in huge quantities. You know, I think I know this answer, but I'm not sure. I want to ask Don, Don's run for 200 mile races in his career. And Don, what were you craving after 12, 18 hours out on the trail? You know, as you came into some aid stations, what were you looking for? What was your body saying? I need some of this. A chair. That's what I needed. You can't eat chairs. For some painkillers. Yes, that too. It was more just regular food. I mean, the pace isn't real tough. You're not out there running a hundred meter dash. So, you know, I was just craving normal natural food. And some of those aid stations didn't have gels and chips and Oreo cookies. It had hamburgers and case ideas and soups and the things that you- Sandwiches. Sandwiches. Yeah. You could order things up, which was nice, and sit down and wait. And their service was fantastic. Yeah, and that kind of speaks to what I'm saying is that once you start doing these really

long races, I call it kind of the ultra-indurance paradox in that if you're going to go out and race a marathon, most people will run a marathon between three and five hours. And when you're running at those kinds of speeds, if you're racing competitively, you're got pretty much start to shut down and you can't take in regular food, especially because the jostling, the pace that you're running at, the intensity of the work.

So you tend to rely on gels and sports drinks and that kind of thing.

But... and you can't take in regular food, especially because of the jostling, the pace that you're running at, the intensity of the work, so you tend to rely on gels and sports drinks and that kind of thing. But as the race duration increases, and you get to the 6, 12, 24, 40 hours, 3 days, 5 days, then ironically it becomes more tolerable because you tend to start, people start introducing more sleep, you're able to get more rest, you start eating more regular food. And going out and running one marathon as hard as you can in some ways is harder than running if you're trained for it. It's harder than running six marathons on six consecutive days because the pace and the intensity are ironically much, much slower. So and then as they say, once you start sleeping more and you start eating more, you start getting more protein, you start getting more real food, it becomes more tolerable. So, I mean, it sounds like the races you've done, Dawn, have been, sounds like the A-stations have got it bang on because they know the athletes will need real food. I only know one athlete who I've crewed recently. No, It wasn't recently, it was over a year ago, but she was able to, she's the only athlete I've ever seen able to do this. She did bad water and took on only sports drink, carbohydrate sports drink, nothing else. And she was running for well over 30 hours. But that's kind of an exception to the role. In my experience, most athletes, like 99 out of 100 athletes will start needing real food under those circumstances. Okay, Dr. Teller, I'm going to have to back up just a little bit and help provide some foundation for me and maybe anybody else that's listening. If protein is for muscle rebuilding, from what we break down and tear down during our workouts or whatever we're doing, why would I need to have a rebuilding product inside while I'm doing the racing? I'm certainly not rebuilding as I'm racing through this hour 12. What's the purpose? Okay, yeah, that's a good question. So obviously, we typically know that protein doesn't on a day to day basis have a really important role in energy metabolism. So we get our energy from breaking down fats and carbohydrates. Those are the energy giving macronutrients. And we typically think of protein as something that is important for growth and maintenance of muscle tissue and amino acids. The building blocks of proteins also have a really important role in immune function. So if you're a vegan, for example, it's tougher to get your protein. It's not impossible. It just requires more planning, but it's very easy to get sick because your immune system takes a dive. You're not getting enough amino acids in your diet. When you're racing, obviously we're putting the muscle under a great deal of strain, especially if it's a trail race, if it's an ultra, if you're racing on rocky or mountainous terrain, if there's lots of downhill segments, because of the eccentric loading on the muscle, muscles are going to, you're gonna introduce micro-tares into the muscle.

And if the race is only a couple of hours long,

you can generally get by just by taking in carbohydrates

and making sure you're hydrating properly.

But at some point, your muscles are going to start becoming damaged.

And that's almost inevitable,

if you're gonna do an ultra-injurance race,

...