Yeah, so what's interesting is that it's the American world order, but Americans have always been kind of ambivalent about actually leading it, because doing all the things that we do to sustain the international order, when we started doing it in the

1940s, it was sort of alien to the tradition of American statecraft.

I mean, sort of the bumper sticker for American statecraft over the first 150 years

had been no entangling alliances.

So if you were Russia, for instance, you might not have liked NATO expansion during the 1990s,

but there wasn't a heck of a lot you could do about it.

That's changed over the past decade plus.

So both Russia and China have rebuilt their national power.

In certain ways, China's been experiencing exponential growth, along with significant growth

with military capabilities.

And so those countries are pushing back against the international order.

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Modern War Institute podcast.

I'm John Amble, editorial director at MWI, and in this episode, MWI's

Jake Moraldi talks to Dr. Hal Brands. Dr. Brands is a Henry A. Kissinger, distinguished professor

of global affairs at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. He is also the author

of the book American Grand Strategy in the age of Trump. In the conversation we recorded for this podcast,

he addresses a fundamental question, what exactly do we mean by the world order? And in a time

when a lot of people might look at the world and see something of a mess, there's actually a lot

going on that we can unpack and start to identify some really important patterns. It is a great discussion that we hope you'll enjoy, but before we get to it, just a couple really

quick notes. First, we have some pretty big changes coming to the MWI website. We'll have

even more great articles, podcast series, and some new things we'll be rolling out that we're

really excited about.

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