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And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host David Axelrod.

I checked in this week with John Meacham, the historian, commentator and now presidential adviser.

You've met him here before, but I wanted to talk to him again about his brilliant new book and then there was light Abraham Lincoln in the American struggle.

We spoke about what new insights he had gleaned about Lincoln, and who in my view was the greatest American president.

And what we can learn from Lincoln's leadership about our own turbulent times. Here's that conversation.

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John Meacham, it's great to see you again.

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

You've been productive, as always, since the last time we got together. And I urged people to go and listen to that podcast because we very much focused on your life and career during that podcast.

But recently, it should have been less recently, but I read your book, your latest book, and there was light Abraham Lincoln and the American struggle.

First of all, there are 15,000 books on Lincoln.

I read that the only figure who has more biographies written is Jesus Christ.

That's right.

So what made you say, you know what? There's something to be said here that hasn't been said, and I need to say it.

Well, the interview with Jesus was tough to get.

So good for you, by the way.

Yeah, I tried. Great numbers. Great.

It would have been huge. We're gonna be like Barbara Walchers in the old days.

I think once you get tired of Lincoln to paraphrase the old line about London, you get tired of life.

Or as you get tired of America.

It's very much, it's a work of history, but unquestionably, it comes out of our own moment of...

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