Hello and welcome to the Meta Hour podcast with Sharon Salzberg.

I'm Lily Kushman. I produce this podcast, and we're coming to you today with episode 284,

Devin and Nico Hase returning to the Meta Hour. They're here today talking about their

brand new book that comes out this month, which is called This Messy, Gorgeous Love, a Buddhist guide to lasting partnership.

Devin and Nico serve as guiding teachers of the online Dharma community called Refuge of Belonging.

They teach at the Insight Meditation Society at Spirit Rock in California and other centers and do all kinds

of online offerings, in-person retreats, and work with students one-on-one. Their first book,

How to Not Be a Hot Mess, came out in 2020, which also marked their first appearance on the podcast. So it's great to have

them back for their second conversation here. Today they talk about the motivation, the inspiration

for this new book, and how we can approach relationships, whether those are family, friends, romantic, how we can approach those as a practice.

They talk about some common myths of relationship, and what happens after we reach the happily ever after moment.

There's some wonderful conversation about the Buddhist personality types and just how

Dukha, which is the Polly word for suffering, really exists in all relationships and are not

a signature of some kind of failure or breakdown.

They also share about how impermanence can inform our connections.

They talk about the healing that can come from deep listening,

how to approach different conflict styles,

and a lot about how we can learn to repair and forgive after we experience a rupture in relationship.

Lastly, there's a lot here about how to make room for play and joy,

both our own but also supporting our friends and partners' joy.

The episode closes with a guided meditation that is an appreciation practice led by Devin.

And this was just a really fun, lighthearted and hilarious conversation while we

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