There's no set of circumstances that covers all the bases.

But in terms of magical ritual, if one takes that seriously as I do, certainly in terms of ESP,

precognition, telepathy, if one takes that seriously as I do, there needs to be skin in the game. There need to be some stakes. It's not just a mental operation.

It's a, well, I described the psyche as a compact of intellect and emotion that needs to be there.

Now, this is the kind of thing that Gary Nolan is interested in because he's interested in the physiological, including psychical,

nature of experience, among other things. So are there correlations there? It begs all kinds of

questions, you know, about these things. Welcome back to Cosmosis. I'm your host, Jay Christopher King.

Our guest this week is Mitch Horowitz, an award-winning historian whose work bridges the gaps between

academic rigor, lived practice, and pop culture curiosity. Among other books, he's written

Uncertain Places, The Miracle Club, and Modern Occultism. His most recent is practical magic,

ancient tradition, and modern practice. Mitch's essays have

appeared everywhere from the New York Times to Time magazine. He's an on-camera host for Discovery

and HBO's Alien Encounters Factor Fiction, and he hosts the podcast Extraordinary Evidence,

ESB is Real, where he unpacks the data behind extrasensory perception.

In short, Mitch is that rare thinker who can move comfortably between the academy, the

media mainstream, and the esoteric underground, always with the invitation to try the ideas on

and test them for ourselves. Now, if you'd like to support the show and help us keep these conversations going,

consider joining us on Patreon.

Patrons get early access to ad-free episodes, exclusive monthly zooms, and excellent

book club, and more.

You can find all the details at patreon.com slash Cosmosis Media.

Before we dive into our conversation today, let's take two minutes to frame why magic, especially

...