Hi, I'm Josie Duffy Rice, and this is the Justice in America book bonus.

So I'm here with Emma Ketteringham.

She is the managing director of the Family defense practice at the Bronx defenders.

This season we're asking all our guests, what are you reading?

What are you listening to or what are you seeing that has impacted your own perspective on criminal justice are a bit

important to you? Well it's hard to find enough time to read and to listen to

things I will say, but I definitely am a huge fan of Justice in America podcast.

I listen to it all the time.

I feel like I have your voices in my earbuds

as I walk around the South Bronx.

So that is huge.

And I read the appeal all the time.

So I'm a huge fan and I'm not even just saying that

because I really am.

A book that has really sort of woke me up

to the child protection system

is a book by Dorothy Roberts called

Shattered Bonds, The Color of child welfare.

And I just highly recommend it to anyone

who's sort of interested in understanding this issue more.

She writes about women in Chicago,

but it is definitely translatable to any urban area and so that's one I try to give it to all of our new lawyers and

...