Hi everybody and welcome to the Anti-Fata. We've got a really awesome episode today.

We have with us returning guest Phil Neal, the author of a wonderful book.

Hope he did a great episode on Hinterlands and with him is

Nick Chavez the two of them together have written an excellent piece for End Notes

called Forrest and Factory and we're here to discuss it today.

Of course we'll put the link to that in the show description so you can read it yourself,

but this will be a nice

primer and discussion about the whole thing the science and the fiction of

communism welcome guys

thanks for having us

yeah thanks

tell me Phil and, how did you guys come together to work on this project and what was your

intention for doing it?

Yeah, I think it was, uh, was this your idea, Phil? I think it was a was this your idea Phil I think it was no I think it was both of ours we

both had kind of a similar impulse to write something something like this and then there were a couple of pieces that we'd sort of

discussed our problems with like these these utopian kind of visions that we had both read and both kind

of complained about in similar ways and so I think it evolved out of those out of those

discussions. So would you call us like an alternative utopian vision

or like a correction?

Or is it, do you see your pieces being utopian?

And at one point you say that the utopians aren't utopian enough. I'm wondering if this is like an alternative

or like a different methodology of writing utopian speculation.

...