Hey, disurban listeners, this is chapter three and our deep dive on the Dugger family with my best friend and co-host on the podcast.

I'm Berdo Casaniera, who has a great shirt on, psychology and Seattle.

So welcome to the podcast. Let's get into it. What do you say, Berdo? Let's do it.

This is the psychology and Seattle podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kirkhan. I'm a therapist and a professor.

My name is Umberto Casaniera and I train in the ways of the Jedi.

So timeline. This is the chapter for the timeline. Let's begin at the beginning.

1984, Jim Bob and Michelle are married, just weeks after Michelle's high school graduation.

Not a crime. Plenty of people get married. My parents got married when they were 19, but you know,

not notable, notable on some level. 1988, skipping ahead four years. Josh was born.

The first child of 19 eventual children, not counting miscarriages.

Michelle was on the pill prior to this, went off the pill to get pregnant with Josh.

After Josh was born, she went back on the pill. Yep.

So pretty common American story there. You have a couple that is managing their family,

you know, family planning. And she became pregnant again, though, while she was on the pill,

which happens sometimes. Sometimes it's because of just the way hormones work and you can't

guarantee things. Or you didn't take the pill correctly or so, you know, who knows? But she got

pregnant again. And one of the things I might know is I'm like, do you think Jim Bob might have

messed with the pill? Because you know, you can change the placebo out or something. I don't think so.

I don't think so. It's just the accidents will happen. Yeah. So she miscarried, though, which was

a very difficult moment for us. So let's let's talk about miscarriage trauma,

Burdo. Sure. You know, for those of you who've been with me a long time, you know, that I have

an unfinished manuscript on grief. I've been writing this book on grief and a good portion of

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