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Because you know that one dummy that scares you the most. The one with the dead looking eyes. Yeah, him. Anyway, if you turn this program off, you'll pop out of a cabinet when you least expect.

He's in there now. Listening right now. He can hear us.

And now your host taking away big dummy Eric Muttaxes.

Thanks, pal. Folks, I try to ignore that and I fail. I'm talking to Paul Lim. L.I.M. who is an academic at Vanderbilt University.

We're having a wonderful conversation now about theology and history. Paul Lim, we were just talking before the break about this split.

I've talked about this many times. It refascinates me this idea that there's a holistic kind of Christian faith, which is true faith that says I'm supposed to care about people's salvation.

And I'm supposed to care about people in this world. And so if I'm willing to move it for us, I'm supposed to care about abolishing slavery. I'm not supposed to say, hey, who cares. It's all going to burn.

The only question is, are the slaves going to heaven or hell? No. Slavery is an abomination. It's an evil. And God wants me to deal with this in this world.

And so that split where some people all they care about is, let's say evangelism and salvation. And then on the other hand, you have people that couldn't care less about that. All they care about is emeliorating things in this world.

Sometimes with no reference to God whatsoever, it is an odd split. And it's a theologically broken somehow we're supposed to do both. So in your academic studies of history, where do you see that break happening before where I see it happening?

You know, you didn't study or your your period is not the period of my will before story. But do you see the roots of this, the seeds of this before that time? Let's say in the 17th century.

Yeah, no, I think it's that was much more holistic and non-bifurcated at that time. And I think there's a very fine book that deals with early Christian perspectives on wealth and poverty.

A scholar at Westman College by the name Helen Rhee. I think it's called helping the poor and saving the rich. So meaning this that the rich by giving their kind of material possessions for the sake of the poor, they were actually both doing each other a great, great favor.

Material salvation on the one hand and spiritual salvation and the two. It's almost as if I need you to be me and you need me to be you.

That seems like a deeply Christian concept doesn't it? It is actually Barton Lover and his book. Of course, though we're got there before we did. Of course.

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