On the 7th October 23, the conflict, or as some call it, the occupation of Palestine, specifically Gaza, by Israel, was projected to the forefront of the global conversation.

Everybody started talking about it and

pretty much they haven't stopped since. But of course, that wasn't when things started.

The story of Israel-Palestine goes back a century or more. The Zionist story further still.

And many people, long before 2023, have tried to make sense of what Israel is doing

in Palestine. It's endgame, the ideology that drives it, and the specific details of what the

occupation of Palestine actually looks like. In all of that, in the Anglophone world at least,

nobody comes near my guest today. Nobody active anyway. His mentor was

Noam Chomsky. His PhD was on Zionism. And really since the early 1980s, he has been a central

critical voice in the United States regarding Israel and how it conducts itself. He has been reinvigorated by a world

of YouTube videos and social media clicks, but he remains very much a literary figure. His research

is second to none. His commitment is to intellectual life and getting the details right. That's certainly the case in

his newest book, which investigates the ongoing genocide of Gaza. I say it a lot, but this time it

really is absolutely warranted. He needs no introduction at all. Norman Finkelstein,

welcome to downstream. Thank you for having me.

Can I start by talking about your parents? There were Holocaust survivors. You've talked about

them many times. People like to focus on one's credentials, your PhD at Princeton and whatnot.

But I think that's probably the best place to start in terms of your world here on these things.

Who were there and what was their life experience?

That's a large question. It's actually a small question. It's large because they looms so large in my life.

But small because I never knew many details about them before the war.

We just never discussed it. We discussed the war as a political

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