4.2 • 3.7K Ratings
🗓️ 2 October 2025
⏱️ 54 minutes
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12,000 years ago, human history changed forever when the egalitarian groups of hunter-gathering humans began to settle down and organize themselves into hierarchies. The few dominated the many, seizing control through violence. What emerged were “Goliaths”: large societies built on a collection of hierarchies that are also terrifyingly fragile, collapsing time after time across the world. Today, we live in a single, global Goliath—one that is precariously interdependent—under threat from nuclear war, climate change, and the existential risks of AI. The next collapse may be our last.
Today’s guest is Luke Kemp, author of Goliath’s Curse. He conducts a historical autopsy on our species, from the earliest cities to the collapse of modern states like Somalia. Drawing on historical databases and the latest discoveries in archaeology and anthropology, he uncovers groundbreaking revelations:
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| 0:00.0 | Scott here with another episode of the History and Plug podcast. |
| 0:07.7 | The question that historians have probably asked the most, at least since Edward |
| 0:11.5 | Gibman's decline and fall of the Roman Empire, is what are the universal conditions that |
| 0:16.0 | causes civilization to collapse? |
| 0:17.9 | It's a good question because we have a lot of case studies and maybe it can give us an answer about what could cause or what is causing right now our own civilization |
| 0:25.4 | to collapse. Well, according to Luke Kemp, who's a researcher at the University of Cambridge's |
| 0:30.2 | Center for the Study of Existential Risk, that's not exactly the right question because most |
| 0:35.3 | societies don't reach the level of civilization. They don't |
| 0:38.4 | become a Roman empire with ornate architecture, philosophical treatises, about the duties that rulers |
| 0:44.2 | owe to the ruled. He says most societies don't reach this advanced stage of civilization, |
| 0:48.8 | but they get stuck at an earlier stage where they're more like an organized crime syndicate. |
| 0:53.6 | Few of the common factors is that these societies, which Kemp calls Goliaths, loot, surplus food |
| 0:58.5 | and resources, like Egyptian pharaohs storing grain, or the Cahokia Society in North America, |
| 1:03.4 | where an elite of priests keep the maize and beans for themselves. |
| 1:06.7 | They also monopolize weapons, for example, controlling bronze production to make superior swords |
| 1:10.9 | and axes. |
| 1:12.0 | And lastly, they control strategic choke points. |
| 1:14.5 | Places where oceans, rivers, deserts, and mountains provide the best living conditions in |
| 1:18.2 | farmland, making it impossible for people to live anywhere else. |
| 1:21.4 | Now, all societies contain these ingredients, but the vast majority never evolved beyond it. |
| 1:25.1 | This understanding helps us see how and why most civilizations in human history have collapsed, |
| 1:30.1 | why others are prone to collapse in the future. |
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