We have unquestionably made progress from the days when skin color determined where people could live or work or go to school or even use the bathroom in parts of the United States.

But while those changes were a big

deal when they happened, they feel like a very low bar today. And they don't say anything

definitive about the state of racism in the 21st century. People often argue about the extent

to which racism is still a thing in the modern era. But even the sincerest expressions of opinion

on either side are just

that. They are opinions. From KERA in Dallas, this is Think. I'm Chris Boyd. To understand the actual

state of racist perceptions and behaviors and outcomes, we need hard facts. And my guest has devoted

his career to finding them by applying scientific experimentation and rigor.

Kiann West is a social psychologist at the University of London. His book is called The Science of Racism.

Everything you need to know, but probably don't yet. Kian, welcome to think.

Thank you so much for having me.

If another scientist wanted to study, say, ducks, they could safely skip over the work to

prove that ducks exist. But that is where you have to start, right, as a scientist studying

racism. Yes, I'd say so. Racism is a lot trickier than ducks in many ways. I often say that physicists have an easy time.

It's easier to work with bricks or balls or bits of string because those things don't have

opinions about themselves. A brick doesn't want to prove to you that it falls faster than a feather.

It just does. Whereas people are tricky.

They do things, but they don't like to admit that they do them.

And so a lot of the experimental work is getting around people's desire to hide things.

Right.

You can't just ask questions about the persistence of racism by polling a representative

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