leading britain's conversation this is a podcast from lbc james o'brien i wonder if you'd allow me to begin with an apology

i don't know what's going on now i i don't have any particular insights or um sparkling observations

pithy contributions to make.

I don't know what happens next and I don't really know how we've ended up in this mess.

I kind of know how we've ended up in this mess, as you know, once you start treating liars and

fraudsters with the same level of respect and authority that you treat people who, whether they're wrong or right,

are at least good faith actors. They're doing their best to explain things honestly. They might make

mistakes. But when you treat them the same as people who are lying and know that they're lying,

for whatever reason, then you end up in this sort of mess, I think. It's probably inevitable.

If I sold you something with a shiny picture of a toaster on the outside, you would not be

stupid for thinking there would be a toaster in the box, right? If you open the box and there's no

toaster in it, and it turns out you've paid 40 quid for a box with a picture of a toaster on it, then I think you'd be entitled to take that box back to the shop and get your money back. And you'd be free to spend £40 on a real toaster, of course, if you got your money back, but you probably would check inside. So now that you know that you need to look inside the box with the picture of the toaster on it,

you would be a much more informed customer than the one who bought a box with a picture of a toaster on it,

without checking to make sure there was actually a toaster inside.

And that's really where we are with the second referendum. It's possible you hadn't viewed it through the lens actually a toaster inside. And that's really where we are with the second

referendum. It's possible you hadn't viewed it through the lens of a toaster, or indeed a

non-existent toaster at this point in time. But now that you've been treated to that comparison,

I'm sure you'll agree it's completely irresistible. What happened in June 2016? I bought a

toaster. Really? Well, no, I thought I was buying a toaster. It turned out I was buying a box with a picture of a toaster on it. And they told me if I just believed enough, they told me for two years. If I just believed enough, then next time I checked inside the box, there'd be a toaster in it. Seriously. There's a danger, of course,

as things stand this morning, and remember, I caveat everything today with an admission that I

don't know what's going on now. An extension could, of course, turn into an invitation to try

a little bit harder to believe that the toaster actually exists. You know and I know that the box is empty, but imagine if you had staked your entire reputation upon the box containing a toaster. You probably wouldn't yet be able to admit that there is no toaster, there never was a toaster, and there never will be a toaster. You're moving quickly towards the point where you claim there was a toaster,

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