My name is Mark Vesente. I'm a director, producer, writer, and troublemaker. I'm most known as the director of the film What the Bleep Do We Know, and as one of the next-team whistleblowers featured in the HBO series, Aval. Let's just say, I know a thing or two about cults. I don't consider myself a cult expert, but I'm definitely an expert in being screwed over, waking up, and

knowing how to spot them.

And let me tell you, they're everywhere.

My mission is to help people see patterns of abuse across multiple contexts.

From personal to family, to group, to societal.

It's all the same pattern at every scale.

As you'll hear, I have a pretty salty approach to most things.

So there might be some blasphemy.

One or two sacred cows might get knocked over, and there'll likely be some foul language.

You never quite know what you're going to get, because it really does depend on what the

fuck is on my mind.

Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Bethany Joy Lens.

If you're just joining us, I highly recommend going back to part one,

because what you're about to hear is the continuation of a story about identity,

faith, coercion, and the long, messy road back to authenticity.

And do yourself a favor.

Go grab her memoir, dinner for vampires, life on a cult TV show, while also in an actual

cult.

It's an incredible read.

In this second half, Joy and I talk about the aftermath, what it costs to unhook from

a high control system, and how it reshapes your

relationship to trust, friendship, and intimacy. This is where we get into the fire and the

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