From New York Times opinion, I'm Ross Douthat, and this is interesting times.

Men and women are different. That's a core premise of conservatism in the age of Trump,

that liberalism and feminism have come to grief by pretending that the sexes are the same.

But what does that difference really mean?

Should the right be trying to roll back most of the feminist era?

Or is there a conservative feminism that can correct for liberalism's mistakes?

My guests this week, Helen Andrews and Leah Librescoe Sargent,

are both conservative writers, both critics of feminism,

but they have very different views of what a right-wing politics of gender should look like.

So Helen, Leah, welcome to interesting times.

Thank you.

You're welcome. I should note, this is the first time this show

has had more than one guest. So it's a radical experiment for me as a host. So I make no promises

about how I will handle the disagreements or agreements to come. But you're both here, I'm sorry to say, as theorists,

we're going to try to debate your theories. Helen, you recently wrote an essay entitled

The Great Feminization that attracted some commentary on the internet and argued, at least in my

gloss, that feminism has failed us because it's made our institutions too feminized, driving men and masculine virtues out.

And Leah, you have a new book called The Dignity of Dependence, where you suggest that liberal feminism has failed us by forcing women to suppress their nature and fit into workplaces and social systems made for men.

So those are two fairly distinct critiques of feminism as it exists right now.

But before we dig into those arguments, I want to start by asking a

really simple, basic, and easy question. And I'll start with you, Helen. What is the difference between

men and women? I feel like I'm a Supreme Court Justice nominee. Well, no, because the Supreme Court

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