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This is a conversation that I recorded a few days ago in London. It's with Alan Rusperger,

who was the editor of the Guardian for a long time, 20 years. He's got a book out called

Breaking News and it's about his experiences as a newspaperman and living through a digital

revolution. And also with Martin Moore and his author, what I think is really the best book about,

well the title is Democracy Hacked and it's about what digital technology has done to democracy,

not just in Britain, not just in America, not just in Europe but absolutely everywhere.

Martin is the director of the Centre for the Study of Media, Communication and Power at

King's College London. So he does that. I started by asking them both, having studied this,

worked through it, lived through it. What was the point if there is one when they suddenly

realised this is all new? So to use Helen's phrase, when did they realise that we weren't in

Kansas anymore? I'm old enough to remember Web 1.0 which was squirting it down the

wires and doing it on screens. And that was such a huge thing. And I remember Emily Bell who was

the director of digital at the time coming in and saying, there's this thing called Web 2.0.

And I said yes, so not imagining that could be a big thing. And she said it's going to be

...