Demis Hassabis, Google DeepMind and the Battle Over AI Safety

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

Society & Culture

4.2 • 3.2K Ratings

🗓️ 28 May 2026

⏱️ 67 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Kara speaks with journalist and author Sebastian Mallaby about his new book, "The Infinity Machine," and its central figure: Demis Hassabis, the CEO and co-founder of Google's AI research lab, DeepMind, and a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry. Sebastian argues that Hassabis is one of the original scientist-entrepreneurs of modern AI. And although he's extremely competitive and research-driven, Sebastian says Hassabis is also one of the few big names in AI development who genuinely cares about public safety. However, despite his best intentions, Hassabis doesn’t have the power to change the race dynamic driving AI’s rapid, and potentially unsafe, development. Kara and Sebastian break down DeepMind's relationship with Google, the push toward artificial general intelligence, and whether the government can regulate the technology before something goes wrong. Questions? Comments? Email us at on@voxmedia.com or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Kara, I was trying to do this sort of optimistic, you know, ending riff.
0:05.0	I understand, Sebastian.
0:06.0	You just burst my balloon.
0:07.0	You know, intelligence has its limitations, but stupidity and greed are infinite.
0:11.0	So that's my feeling. I'm sorry. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:28.8	This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
0:32.0	My guest today is journalist and author Sebastian Malaby.
0:35.5	He's a longtime chronicle of power and innovation, especially in the
0:38.5	world of finance and economics. For his latest book, The Infinity Machine, he turns his attention to tech.
0:44.7	His central figure is Demis Hesabas, the CEO and co-founder of Google's AI R&D Lab, Deep Mind, and a Nobel
0:52.1	Prize winner in chemistry. Hesabas has dedicated his life to using
0:56.7	AI to unlock the mysteries of physics and biology. A former child chess prodigy, he's rapidly
1:02.2	competitive and insatiably curious. But Malibis says Demis is also one of the very few big names
1:08.2	in AI development who genuinely cares about public safety.
1:12.0	His struggle to balance his ambition, his personal goals, and the realities of the corporate AI
1:16.9	race is, according to Malibi, one of the most defining stories of the era. I think it's really
1:22.0	important to look at characters like Demis because he was a very early person in AI, at least
1:27.1	the modern version of AI, because it's
1:28.6	been around forever. He's also based in London and kept his company there and away from Silicon
1:34.0	Valley, so he has different goals here. At the same time, he's incredibly ambitious and a bit of
1:39.3	crusty, according to lots of people, very typical of a science researcher type. But he has less and less
1:46.0	power over what's happening because of the vast amounts of money pouring into the space. People
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