You're listening to The Great Simplification with Nate Higgins.

That's me.

On this show, we try to explore and simplify what's happening with energy, the economy, the environment, in our society.

Together with scientists, experts, and leaders, this show is about understanding the bird's-eye view of how everything fits together, where we go from here and what we can do about it as a society and as individuals.

Joining me today is David Holmgren, who, with Bill Mollison around 50 years ago, designed

the concept of permaculture with their book Permaculture One back in 1978.

Since then, David has developed three properties in Australia, consulted and supervised

on urban and rural projects and written many more books,

of which I have several.

Within the permaculture movement, David is committed to showing by personal example that a sustainable

lifestyle is realistic, attractive, and a powerful alternative to dependent consumerism.

Please welcome David Holmgren.

Hello, David Holmgren.

Great to meet you after all these years.

And great to meet you, too, to join you on this fantastic podcast of yours.

I've known of your work for 20 years plus or minus. So, so let's, um, let's get right into it.

I've had several permaculture experts on the show. However, you're actually one of the co-founders of permaculture. So in your words, um, can you briefly describe what is permaculture and how you first became interested in it?

I am one of the co-originators of the concept and was the co-author with Bill Mollison of the first book published in 1978 based on our work together in the early and mid-70s.

But I of course acknowledge him as the father of the permaculture movement.

As it grew beginning in the 80s, I was more of an observer of that process rather than a founder of the

spread of permaculture as a movement, which has happened through a lot of mechanisms, but especially

the permaculture design course, often in a residential form where people had a deep immersion

...