When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point and that's what I do. Because you've been such a successful hitmaker, do you have a particular philosophy about making hints? Because again, your ability to move through genres, my philosophy is don't think about it. Yeah. I worked with, we opened for everybody from David Bowie to Billy Paul and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on. So only in the record business, does your old label release a song that you had before to capitalize on your success with the other label that you're now signed to? Yeah. And of course, we're talking about she's gone, which they reissue becomes, I think number seven. Yeah. How? You must have been like, okay, like, sure, I wasn't complaining, right? I just thought, well, okay, you screw it up the first time. So try and do it right the second time. Yeah. classic now, which is funny how those things work.

How much after that kind of was reissued to Varys do their cover, which was also a hit number one R&B. I'm not I'm my brain. I'm I'm forgetting what came out first. To Varys to Varys did it. But I don't know if they did it before before before the release. I think Tivars did it, but I don't know if they did it before before or before the release. I think Tvars did it and then we then ours. Because their version is great. Yeah, that was good. Yeah, really cool. I'm curious because okay, now you're having your first true success. You've got two hits singles. I mean, for people like us, it's like, wow, I mean, it's two hits singles. It's actually happening. I'm that guy, right? Yeah. What was your personal life like then? Well, I was living in the village in New York and with Sarah Allen. And I was on a road a lot. Right. You know, we're doing those package tours where it's like you guys. I was playing with everybody, man. I worked with, we opened for everybody from David Bowie to Billy Paul and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on. Yeah. Cheech and Chong. Wow. No, we didn't know that they were for us. Yeah. How'd you get on with Bowie? He must have. I don't know. I knew David. I was still loved what you were doing. Yeah. I was. This was too early to. He was. This was the second show he played in the United States. Is this Ziggy Stardust? Yeah, this was the first Ziggy thing. Okay. And it was a Memphis Tennessee.

And I- early to he he was this was the second show he played in the United States. Is it Ziggy Stardust? Yeah, this was this is the first Ziggy thing. Okay. And it was a Memphis Tennessee and I blew my mind to tell you the truth. And but he's so good. But I mean, you know, he was they were treating him like he was. I don't know what the end. You know, they would carry him around him. And it was no. It was. Well, that's when he was with Tony to freeze. Yeah, all that. Tony to freeze was charging 50%.

Put it. the end you know they carry him around and it was no it was well that's when he was with Tony to freeze yeah all that Tony of freeze was charging 50% putting him in limousine bank rupting him so everyone that whole Tony to freeze situation oh man it was here these guys in karate suit walking around I mean it was it was stupid but uh you know I love David man I mean yeah yeah um I'm curious because I don't think there's any information that I saw because you've been such a successful hitmaker. Do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because again, your ability to move through genres, you know. If I have a philosophy is that I don't know what hit is. Okay. I am always surprised if something is successful commercially or or or not. So you wouldn't fall in a trap of thing. Okay. This one's going to be a hit. I mean, I sometimes I think it's going to happen and it doesn't happen at all. Yeah? Yeah, sometimes I say to my fans, you know,

if I knew how to recreate it, I would, you know. Oh, yeah, they always say, what's your formula? I said, you kidding? That's why I asked the more of a philosophy, you know. Yeah, no, my philosophy is don't think about it. Yeah, I do think it's remarkable that obviously there's cultural influences in your music as you go through the eras, but you seem overall immune to trend.

Does that a fair comment, you think? Yeah, I think I'm out of the, you know, sweet, generous kind of thing. You know, I try and even, I don't do it at all now. I don't even pay the attention to trend. But even in days when it was more important because of the way radio worked and all that, I still only just picked and chose little things to try and be relevant and congruent with the other people that were on the radio, you know, although my stuff wound up not really sounding like everybody. Yeah. Were you receiving any particular business pressure to go in a particular direction at that time? Uh, yeah. I always used to get, like, Tommy Mutola pressure, you know, that kind of stuff, you know. you know, you know, you define that, you know, it would be very good if you would stop playing the guitar songs, stay with the piano, you know, yeah, I had a manager once tell me, you write songs to girls like, what is all this heavy loud guitar music? He said, you should stick with the pretty girls song. Oh, yeah this song was. That was 1990, which is before I wrote. I wrote you made my dreams. He said, what's that Charles Dickens? What is that supposed to mean? Oh my god. Okay, so we're at the watershed moment of the second Atlantic album. Rich girl goes number one. Great, still in the great songs all time. Is there a fresh story there about that song? I don't know if it's a fresh story. There is the story. All right. Tell me the story. I mean, I've told this story, but it was Sarah Allen's college boyfriend who she still hung out, not hung out with, but you know, knew. And he came to our house our apartment and I was tripping or something. I don't know you know, he was he was he was acting pretty crazy and and and and He and he happened to be an heir to a fast food place in Chicago in Chicago Chicago Chicago here. Is it sausage king stuff?

He was one of those kind of things.

Yeah.

And he left, I want man. He's a rich boy, but he's gone too far. And that's, and then I said, and I sat down and he's a rich boy, and he's gone too far. That's about as far as I got. And then I said, now that don't sound right. So I changed it to Rich Girl and then finished the song.

I'm curious at this stage because I know how the music business works all too well. There had to be someone in your ear telling you at this time to go solo. There had to be. My real friends. Okay. As opposed to the business people. Was there any internal dilemma for you of following that? There was a lot of people and this one on for quite a while, where people were saying, why are you just, why don't you just, are you a, are you a, are you an, innately, a loyal person? I am actually, I mean, I do consider myself very loyal and to a fault sometimes. And I did this, I bucked it and went with Robert and did this and did those two records at Robert. And that was when I was actually making a statement, going like, okay, I'm doing a solo thing. But I got so much pushback from my manager, Ms. Hola, and the record company. It just made it impossible. They sabotaged it. That's really what happened. I mean, it's simple as that. Is it because they're like is working? Domestic. The old cash cow. They liked it. They thought they thought a hall of hosts was more viably was more commercial to their interest. Do you do wish now that you had he did that call? I wish that I would have done more with Robert. Yes. Yeah. And he does too. I mean, Robert and I are close friends. And another total gentleman. Yeah. A great guy. Really great guy. And I just saw him a couple of weeks ago. And I wish that we had done more together. Yes, I do. I mean, he really, he was into it.

He was pushing for it.

He said, let's go.

Let's, you know, he wanted to call it,

League of Gentlemen, you know.

He said, and you'd be the singer,

and then we'll write songs and do it.

And then I just got too much pressure.

I mean, I was living in a bubble.

I was, first to say that, I was almost semi-hippeneditized by it all because I was, I was kept in a situation where I didn't really have any advisors in the business. They did that back then very well. In the business. I mean, everybody was on the side against me and they were all in collusion with each other. Whether it be lawyers or accountants or record company or the whole thing management. They were all in collusion with each other, whether it be lawyers or accountants or a record company or the whole thing management. And they were all saying the same thing. Stick with loads, stick with loads, stick with loads. And then I did and did the voices album and that was around the time when I could have made that choice of either going and doing something. 77. No, this was more like 79. Okay. And whether I was going to do this thing with the Robert or I was going to make an album for our C.A. And I did it and then I don't know what you want to call it. What kind of barrier did it? Well, it became, I mean, that was kiss of my list and I know that stuff. Okay. So it then it was successful. Mm. I do remember because I was a fan. I do remember when you seemed to at least publicly felt like you guys made this pivot to what became more of an 80s sound. I was surprised that when you went there, you went there a lot earlier than a lot of people. So in many ways, I think you're probably more influential in that space than I would have given you credit for because in my mind, that stuff was more like mid 80s, but like it really starts about 1980, which was kiss on my list and was that something that you had decided internally? Where'd that come from? It wasn't a decision. It was the fact that we were producing ourselves pretty much with the engineer. I had been spending most of my time in England. I think that that's why I picked up on the, I picked up on it because it was happening faster over there. And so there was that influence. What was attractive about that? Because there's a, you know, 80s music is kind of cool. It's alien in a way, but it's kind of coldness too, but that's what makes it pretty. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it was just a different sound. Yeah. So there's nothing like you had this kind of moment. It's just like you just kind of drifted there. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. You guys go on this halacious run. So you lost that loving feeling goes to number five, kiss on my list number one. You make my my dreams come true, number five, private eyes, number one. I can't go for that. That was number one, man eater, number one. Obviously, not all in a row, an out of touch, number one. That's like, that's like crazy land. It was. Success. It was, it was. It was. Whatever it was that we were doing people were suddenly really liked. What do you think it was about that looking back that? It's very hard for me to tell you. It does sound like other people. It sounds very much like me. And it's to my ears. It still sounds super fresh, which is weird because. Well, that's that's what everybody says. It's like the kind of thing if it came out today, which still works. Well, that's that's part of its lasting success. Yeah. These songs, they, I mean, I play them on stage all the time. Yeah. Without John. And it, nobody seems to, you know, it sounds the same. Well, we'll just leave that lay for a moment.

Okay, now, I asked you before what your life

was like when you started.

Okay, now you're in a totally different

...