Hey folks, welcome to the Dark Horse Podcast. I have the distinct pleasure of sitting today

with Irshad Manji. She is at Oxford, lecturing for the initiative for Global Ethics and Human

Rights. She is founder of the Moral Courage Project and author of several books including

the most recent Don't Label Me, How to Do Diversity without inflaming the Culture Wars.

Irshad, welcome to Dark Horse.

I'm so thrilled to be here, Brett. Thanks.

So tell me, you've written a book, Don't Label Me, How to Do Diversity without

inflaming the Culture Wars. What fun would it be if we didn't inflame the Culture Wars?

Yeah, it is fun, isn't it? For about five seconds. And then, you know, the dopamine hit

wears off and we continue to crave it and we continue to chase it. And then we wind

up in a, in a, in a bis, sort of an ideologically zealous abyss that really is no fun for anybody.

I don't know about you. I will tell you, I am not missing the noise of the Trump administration.

I love the fact that we're actually talking about issues, not about his behavior. And I

can honestly tell you that whenever there are stories that pop up in my feeds about him,

I have zero desire to read them. I really, because I feel like saying, you remember what

Melania Trump was wearing on the back of her jacket when she, you know, went to see the

Mexican kids, you know, I don't really care, do you? That's how I feel about continuing

to remain mired in the noise. Well, I want to move on. I, I hate to disagree with you

so early in our discussion, but I, I think it's best that we just confront the question.

All right. I feel a lot calmer without the noise of Trump and paying attention to his

every word and misunderstanding and looking for dog whistles everywhere. But I have the

sense that we now have an administration that has high production values and it knows

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