China uses what we call a whole-of-society approach to conducting espionage.

In the U.S. or Canada, so we're not talking about hundreds, or we're not talking about thousands.

We're talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands,

of people engaged globally in carrying out the CCP's will.

There are few people who understand Chinese espionage tradecraft, as well as Professor Nicholas

F. DiMiatis. After a 34-year government career, including time at the CIA, State Department,

and Defense Intelligence Agency, he's now a professor at Penn State University's Homeland Security

Program and a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

We have at Los Alamos, we've had 116 ethnic Chinese who have worked on critical technologies who have gone back to China.

He's the author of Chinese espionage, operations and tactics.

And this is extraordinary.

U.S. universities that are working for China, developing technologies that the U.S. government has told China it cannot import.

This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yankee Kallek.

Nicholas F. DiMiyadh, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Thank you very much for having me.

You have incredible in-depth knowledge about the Chinese Communist Party's espionage operations in America and Canada.

How big, how deep of a problem is this really?

You know, one could argue at a strategic level, it presents the greatest threat to the

U.S. and Canada that we've seen since the fall of the Soviet Union, since Nazism.

Just justify that to me.

Well, China uses what we call a whole-of-society approach to conducting espionage.

In the U.S. or Canada, whether it's the RCMP or CES in Canada or the CIA or the FBI in the United States,

...