Hey guys, it's Havier and John with Criminal Conduct and we just wrapped up season four.

It's ready.

It's awesome.

John, you and I have been talking about this case for years, right?

Back to like season one.

Yeah, I mean, I got involved in this case back in 2016 and I did a couple episodes on

Twisted about it, but it is a case that has been near and dear to my heart for many years

and I just always keep track of it and it's one that I have been talking to you about

and I've wanted to do for Criminal Conduct for a long time because I just think that

it's such a, it's a sad case but it's also a very compelling case.

Yeah, I first learned about it on your podcast Twisted, you covered it.

I think you did a multi-part episode season and that's like the one case it has haunted

me for a very long time.

I mean, you know it's an intriguing and complex case when years go by and you're still fascinated

because the central question behind this case is so compelling and one that really needs

to be discussed, right?

Yeah, it does and it's one of those things where it kind of melds the true crime community

in a way with official investigations and that's because the mother of the victim and

one of her friends, basically they had been trying to get this case into the legal system

for years.

So, basically it was a grassroots type of organization just pushing this forward just

like the true crime community wants to be where they don't know the specifics of how

...