I love the idea of thinking about music as energy and as frequency.

There's such an interesting cross-pollination

when you collaborate with artists across different disciplines.

So John, for example, will play me a list of songs and ask me how he should sequence them. And I'll say,

what is the narrative arc here? And I'm thinking of it from a writer's mind. Sometimes I'll show

John a draft and he'll say the rhythm of this sentence isn't landing. And that feedback is so eye-opening and expansive and has fundamentally

changed the way that I think about how to write a sentence. Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome

back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on The Science of What Makes Us Tick.

I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

Grammy-winning musician John Battiste and Emmy-winning writer Suleka Jawad

have a creative partnership

unlike any other I've seen. And it's not just because they're married, and they've been

friends since they were kids. As artists, their individual practices are in conversation with each

other, and the structures and language of their mediums inform their work. Their ability to

create and learn from each other has helped them through tough times, like Suleka's battle against cancer.

We've talked about the notion of survival being its own kind of creative act,

figuring out how to paraphrase the poet G.S. Eliot to find a still point in the spinning world when your life feels mired in

chaos, that requires creativity. Their creativity has also sparked a sense of possibility.

It's so powerful to witness with what she's going through every day. The possibilities of that

in you are just, it makes me emotional just to think

about witnessing it day in, day out, day in, day out. Both John and Suleka have been on

rethinking before, but never together. So I'm delighted to share a conversation we all head on

...