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It's Unholy. I'm Yonit Levy of Channel 12 in Tel Aviv. And I'm Jonathan Friedland of The Guardian in London.

And sometime about a year ago, we did something strange for us, and we moved Jonathan Friedland from the co-host chair, which he, you know, sits in comfortably, to the interviewee chair, because we wanted to talk about his remarkable book, The Escape Artist.

It was, I thought, a really lovely experience to actually interview you

and talk to you about your book, again, an opportunity to say to anyone listening to us that hasn't

read it. Please do read it. It is so relevant not only as what it does to bring forth a hero that

was really unknown before you told this

story, Rudi Verba, but also how relevant it is to today and not only, you know, because

of Holocaust deniers or anything like that, but because of the line between truth and

falsehood and what you do when you actually see the truth.

You know, I love this book so much.

I am lucky to say that I was, I think, one of the first people read it.

Well, I was about to say you were, I think, one of the very, very first people to read

it, actually.

And the conversation we had was one of the first,

really, that I'd had at any kind of length about the books. I was still sort of feeling my way.

And I think, you know, I think you know that I was never sure that this book would sort of

connect with people in the way, I'm very glad to say it has, because, you know, there are lots of books about lots of horridical survivors. And somehow,

I didn't know if this would cut through. And when you and I were talking, it was still, you know,

at the very, very early days. So I think the notion of it having relevance is about the way we

understand facts, the way we believe them or don't believe them, how the world responds to bad news.

Some of those themes have, in my mind, I only feel sort of stronger, you know, all these months later.

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