This is the Cato Daily Podcast for Wednesday, November 2nd,

2022. I'm Caleb Brown.

It's time for choosing for self-described conservatives.

Are you Team Froto or team Borramir?

Tony Woodleaf is senior executive vice president of the state policy network.

We discussed the new nationalist conservatives,

those who view the levers of a large and powerful state as a gift to be wielded.

And those remaining conservatives who view an immense state as a danger that ought to be destroyed.

Tony, I think you would agree it is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life.

And yet we have a growing group of self-described conservatives, and I say self-described because I wouldn't necessarily describe

them that way, the so-called national conservatives, nationalist conservatives, conservative nationalists.

And I generally don't like the metaphor that takes our current political climate and tries to wedge it into a pop culture narrative, but this one fits really well.

So here we are.

Differentiate between Team Frodo or Team Hobbit and Team Borramir when it comes to your observations

from the recent National Conservative conference.

Sure. I, well first I'll say what we have in common is we both dislike Sauron. I mean so we agree on the enemy, right, which is the, you know,

national administrative state, the overweening power of the federal government,

destroying our communities, where we differ of course is like in the

Lord of the Rings the Frodo side the Hobbit side which I consider myself part of even though I'm not

a great gardener we want to destroy that power. Right?

Take the ring and throw it into the fire of Mount Doom and destroy it and the Borramir side,

there's a lot of talk about seizing the power of the federal government

...