This is the Cato Daily Podcast for Monday, April 13th, 2020. I'm Caleb Brown.

Conservative nationalism laid bare or just a substantial outlier.

If you take Harvard Professor Adrian Vermule at his word in a new essay at the Atlantic

abandoning longstanding conservative views about the Constitution and implementing

substantial restrictions on basic liberties

are what need to come next in the fight for a nationalist conservatism.

Naturally, that horrifies Reason magazine's Stephanie Slade, we spoke last week.

You and I have talked about national conservatism or conservative nationalism a couple of times now and this piece by Adrian Vermeul from Harvard Law School

what do you make of it? I think it's frightening but it's also actually I

tweeted this it's kind of a gift to us because he I think is going farther than almost anybody on this sort of illiberal right in telling us exactly what that means to them.

So last summer or last, yeah, I guess it was early summer last year,

we had the big, the great Amari French conflagration of 2019 in which the Washington Post opinion

editor Sorob Amari wrote this long scathing article at First Things magazine basically saying the classical

liberal order has failed and it's time for conservatives sort of

traditionalist conservatives to seize control of government and not be so afraid to use the power, the sort of strong

arm of the federal government and the state to enforce our conservatives vision of morality

on the country.

And everybody freaked out, I think rightly so, including me,

I wrote a long response at reason.

But then in subsequent months,

as he was pressed, okay, well, what does that mean?

What do you actually think the government should do,

...