Hey Jim Daley here. If you like the focus on the family broadcast and haven't

grown tired of this voice just yet, you'll love my ReFocus podcast. On ReFocus I

take a deeper dive with a respected thinker on different aspects of culture. I

ask those hard questions that maybe they don't get that often and I don't

shy away from challenging topics to help you share God's grace, truth, and love

with others. So listen to ReFocus with Jim Daley on your favorite streaming app

today.

When someone confesses that they've had a problem with pornography, your first

reaction might be to respond strongly, maybe even negatively. I can't believe

you do something like that, but shaming isn't what God would do. God's grace is

what we should be leading into at that moment. I'm John Fuller joined by Dr.

Greg Smalley and his wife Aaron. They lead our marriage department and Greg in

terms of this particular struggle, pornography. Why is it so toxic for the

person who has struggled to have a shame kind of driven response by someone

else? Yeah, because shame causes people to avoid vulnerability and relationships.

So think about go all the way back to the beginning, Adam and Eve in the

garden after they sin, what did they want to do? They instantly wanted to

hide. They severed in some ways the relationship with God. And so part of it

when you feel shameful, we want to get away from that person who's shaming us.

God wasn't shaming them. I'm saying it's human nature though to avoid

relationship when we feel shame. The other part of that though, John, is that

avoiding vulnerability. I think shame leads people to hide, to kind of

...