BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Hello and welcome to the programme.

And we have an unconventional programme today, looking at business and crime.

Now, you might think that means we're asking how business should prevent itself being a victim of crime.

But no, we're taking a rather different tack, looking at two sides of a coin, how crime can be

remarkably business-like and how business can sometimes be criminal. There are parallels between

these two worlds of crime and business, and our goal today is to draw them and ask what makes

some people go legit and others down the wrong route. Well, it's a good topic,

a timely one, with the rapper Jay-Z, just becoming a billionaire, according to Forbes magazine.

He has spoken about learning the tricks of business in some early dodgy trading on the streets.

Well, I have three guests with interesting views and experience on this topic.

First up is Barrister Sara George, partner at the law firm Sidley Austin. And Sarah,

you've been on the program before talking about why companies do bad things. Just remind us of your

legal ex-specialism. I'm a specialist in international criminal investigations into financial crime. So I'm very interested in how businesses commit crime

and also how criminals become like businesses. Right. And so you would basically call

yourself someone in the air of white collar crime, presumably. It's not drug dealers or

gangsters. It's, it's... No, although the sources of some of the money can be of that sort, yes.

And do you find there's a fuzzy line between the world of crime and business?

I mean, I have drawn the line quite sort of two worlds and we're looking at the parallels.

But is there much crossing between that?

In my world, they are one and the same.

And particularly, international criminality like money laundering requires a whole army of professional enablers, like lawyers, accountants, bankers.

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