This is The Reason interview with Nicholas.

Thanks for listening.

This episode, I'm happy to say, is sponsored by Better Help Online Therapy.

That's Better Help, H-E-L-P, more on them in the middle of the show.

This episode is also, and I'm happy about this too, is sponsored by

the Best of Reason, a new podcast series that uses AI to make the world a little freer and

a lot more interesting. More on that at the end of the show. My guest today is Colleen

Aren, a sociologist at William Patterson University in my favorite state in the

country, New Jersey. She's also, and far more importantly, the author of just a fantastic

new book called Reform Nation, the First Step Act, and the Movement to End Mass Incarceration.

As you may recall, the First Step Act was signed into law by Donald Trump in

2018, and it is one of the few major reforms in the past 50 years that's aimed at reducing

federal prison time and after incarceration stigma and recidivism. The legislation was championed

by the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, remember him,

his father had served time for tax evasion and witness tampering. And it was also championed by

very high-profile celebrities such as Kim Kardashian and Alyssa Milano. You remember those pictures

of Kardashian in particular in Trump in the Oval Office,

you know, him sitting at the desk or standing by. It drew major support as well from

philanthropic foundations all over the political and ideological spectrum. The First Step Act is a

great case study in how political change gets done.

Arend's book is a masterful account of this.

She shows how grassroots activism on a cause that, you know, if we're being honest, very

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